The Blackcoat's Daughter feat. Julieann Marie

When you meet these people, do you say that she's do you say that they had to do a blood test to see if her head matched the body? Hey, Dad is calling to see where you and mom are. If you're coming. Worst case, they come on Friday, and everyone goes home and has a really nice break. After all, we can't let you live here. But you know about the sisters, don't you? They worship a devil. Hello, Sydney. Uh hi. Who is this? It's your killer host. My name is Parker, your resident horror fanatic. And I'm Julianne, your A24 horror. And welcome to. What's your favorite scary movie? What's your favorite scary movie is a horror film podcast where we're on a journey to find our favorite scary movie one at a time.

Whether you hate them or love them, join us and discover yours. Spoilers ahead, so plan your movie screening every weekend before the episode release. That's how you bring the people in. Just Satan off the bat. People always say too political. You think Satan's gonna change that? You know what I'm saying? I already got what I'm saying in the beginning. Do you want to know, Julianne? What word? You know how in Donnie Darko, I'm I know, I'm taking this off the rails already. You know how in Donnie Darko the most beautiful word in the English language is cellar door. Sure. Do you remember that? I I I haven't seen it in so goddamn long. I don't remember.

No. Drew Barrymore tells him cellar door, most beautiful word in the English language. Not to spit in the face of either Donnie Darko or Drew Barrymore. Two things I love. But do you want to know what I think is the most beautiful combination of words? Kiernan Shipka. Oh, I guess something else. Is that not the coolest name? Yeah, that is a pretty rad name. What I was gonna say, kill the guns. No, for some reason I get a shiver when I hear that word. Um but it's but that's my favorite part, right? It's not it's your favorite part of the movie, you know it is. My favorite part is that Satan's using the phone. Like, is he on the other word line?

Just like hello. Speaking of Kieran and Shipka and um Satan on the phone. It's me, I'm Satan on the phone. Hi guys. Oh, Julianne, I thought that was Satan. This must be the wrong interview. Oh, well, we're talking about the black coat's daughter, which do you like the name the black coat's daughter, Julianne? I do, but it was originally called February, and which is why I said we we should do it this we should do it this month. But no, I I think February would have been it would have been too too a little bit too big. It would have been like a little bit too like you don't know what the movie's about at all.

I feel like they probably changed it to sell it, make it more like the black host daughter is demonic. They they need they A24 needed that like what's what's a black coat? Like the damn song in the beginning, the incantation. It's like D Blue Evil Black Hoth Daughter. That's yeah, that it's an it's an incantation. Black host daughter is like did you watch the same dance movie? I did. What are you talking about? All right, Julianne. Deep breaths, deep breaths, moving on, moving on. We're all friends here. We love horror movies. We don't love words that people made up like black coat, but it's okay, it's okay. It's beside the point, beside the point. So the black coat's daughter came out in festivals.

It actually premiered at Toronto, Toronto International Film Festival in the year 2015, but did not make it to the masses, the masses, the eyes of the people, until it dropped. Interesting to me, online on VOD through direct TV in February of 2017. Then in March of 2017, had a limited theatrical release with A24. That doesn't make sense to me. That's some sort of like COVID premonition right there. Because that doesn't make sense to me. A24 has like a weird deal with direct TV. Like, do you remember um 2019, The Hole in the Ground? That Irish horror film. Do you remember that? I saw it, but I tell you for sure I did not remember a thing about it.

I yeah, I wasn't a fan of it either, but they it's the same thing. It's like they they distribute, like I guess like their so-called like smaller horror films or smaller films sometimes on through direct TV. Um, picked it up through like Sundance, and then we're just like dump it, like, hey, we now ever can watch it. It's a weird distribution deal they have, but it they they do do that sometimes. So well, I despise that. I don't like it, but yeah, it's it's good enough for it. Yeah, and I agree. Yeah, alas, here we are watching it. Um, I do wonder the year 2017. That's that's a year when both of us were adults that could watch movies like this.

Um, I never heard of this movie until I became friends with you in 2019. What did this movie make any sort of splash when it first came out? Like, did you hear about it? Yeah, so um before my time at Bloody Disgusting, uh, Brad Misca, the owner of Buddy Disgusting, uh, he was all about it. He had seen it at at Tiff that year in 2015, and he made like a big splash about it. So it kind of had some buzz through that. Um and I think it just kind of got like a quiet, like, you know, God, this movie's like the next big thing, whatever. And then it kind of came out. I didn't see it until probably like later that year.

Um, but it was a very quiet, like it's like it's like like the like the in-depth, like the little horror bubble kind of knew about it, but really not much else. Um, I still feel like I fight for this movie. I still feel like I when I discover someone else who loves it, I'm like, oh thank god, because I just it it's just it never quite got that level. And I don't know why, because like Emma Roberts is is in it, like yeah, that's a big that's a big name. I know that Kieran Chipka and I mean Lucy Boyne, she's still not that big. She's not yeah, yeah. Um, but like even like Oz Perkins, like as I mean, as you probably get into it, but he's Anthony Perkins' son.

Like, I don't like how does he how is he not a bigger name? I mean he's well technically this was his first first feature that he directed. It wasn't released wide until after his Netflix movie. Um I am the pretty thing that lives in the house, which correct, yeah, not a good title. Not a good title. Oz Perkins, work on those titles. That's my challenge. Stop it. Except for Gretel and Hans. I was about to say that's a solid title. That tells me everything. I know it's both provocative and informative. And I was about to say this movie, written and directed by Oz Perkins, and first of all, this movie I think shares a lot of similar themes and ideas with Gretel and Hansel, which Gretel and Hansel was not written by Oz Perkins, but I do think they share a similar like you could put these two together in a marathon, and I think they would pair well.

Um, but we went all in on Oz Perkins. Interesting facts, there's a lot of tea to spill, a lot of juice to be sucked from Oz Perkins. He's interesting. And if you want to hear all about it, go find our Gretel and Hansel episode because we dive in on Oz Perkins. Uh, and since Gretel and Hansel, really the only thing it appears that he has done is he has directed an episode of the Twilight Zone reboot. So that is your catch-up from our last discussion of Oz Perkins. Also, I do not particularly remember the score moving me one way or the other. So I imagine that means that it blended quite well with the vibe of the movie.

Um, but it was composed by Oz Perkins's brother, who his name is Elvis Perkins. It's a rad name. Elvis and Oz to Radney. No, you really you should go back and listen to the score. I just like on YouTube, like an odd. It's it actually is really, really perfect for the movie. I remember some nice, like deep bass rumbling. Yeah. Which is good. I do remember that. It's just like thinking back like like melodies harmony. Like, you know, those are the things that I'll like Jurassic Park theme song, go off. Like, that's not what was happening here. So I'm just saying, like, usually I wouldn't recognize necessarily on the episode a a score that was so like woven into the movie, but Elvis Perkins, I'm not gonna pass up that name.

And as Parker so gleefully mentioned, Black Hood's daughter stars Kieran and Chipka as Kat. Would you say that she is the titular character? She is the titular character. Continue, yeah. That's just a good word. You know, I was gonna do that. Best known for Mad Men and the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. Has she been in anything hor else horror-related? She's had it. She's been in a couple of uh like little Netflix movies. There's that one that looked like it was about like pterodactyls or something that had Stanley Two. Yeah, like the weird ass like bird movie or something. Isn't like birds or something that's attacking them? Like, yeah, yeah, I that's I think they look like pterodactyls.

Yeah, I didn't watch it because you know. Um here we are just shitting on like a lot of other movies in this episode. Yeah, also stars Lucy Boynton as Rose. Um, she returned to the Perkins Canon in I Am the Pretty Thing That Lives in the House in 2016. She's also in Bohemian Rhapsody, blah, and Ryan Murphy's the Politician, blue. You didn't watch that. Don't pretend you watched The Politician. I didn't watch it, but I it just looks blah. You know it does. Did you watch it? I like trash, Julian. I like it. It's Ryan Murphy trash, though. Yeah. Emma Roberts is Joan, of course, and she's in freaking everything and Scream 4, The Hunt, um, American Horror Story, blah blah blah.

You know, Mer, you know, Emma's Emma's the Scream Queen, and she's been in Scream Queens. I did theirs. She she's actually, I don't like I like her in certain things. I think she's excellent in this. No, I think she's I think she's really damn good in this, and I think it's this is a really understated performance. I think because like she always gets kind of like the mean girl stuff, and this one's so quiet and so subtle, and she never gets like roles like that. Yeah, I just always yell. She always yelling and being bitchy and like, yeah, and this one's just so understated. Like, I yeah, I I dig her in this. And if you want to hear more about Emma Roberts, you can listen to our episodes on Scream 4 or The Hunt, which Julianne herself was on that episode.

Not she's you weren't on the hunt, you were not in the hunt. I wasn't in the episode on the hunt. But I was there, I was in, I was out, you know. Now, speaking of words that rhyme with hunt, back to Blackcoat's daughter. If you're wondering what might have happened in the Blackcoat's daughter, well, I've made the official decision to give you a chronological rundown of the film, which takes some of the gasp out of some of the twists. Oh wow, alas. So it's the beginning of some sort of extended school holiday at Brantford Boarding School, which I deduce is in New England. I no, I think it's just I think it was just like a winter break kind of thing, I believe.

It's like a like a February break. I think they're I don't think it's just I don't think it specifies um whatever their semester breakdown is like. It's just like yeah. Um I also quick one mention too, uh Oz Perkins kind of the reason why this is so jumbled up and like the way it's broken down in like such a weird order chronologically. He he says that he kind of views the movie as more of like a song than like an actual film, like an actual story, I should say. Like he views it as like it's like it has like a chorus and a bridge, and you return back to the course and you're turn back to the like the second bridge.

Like it's like it's doesn't it feel like that though? That is interesting. I do wonder, and I know that I just said this on our promising young woman review, so I don't want to be beating a dead horse, as they say, but I wonder how necessary the name cards are because it's getting you know, Rose, Joan, Cat, but also in the Rose section, we're getting a lot of Joan. And in the the Joan section, we're getting cat and the only one is that Kat's section is specifically cat's perspective. So I just I don't know. I wonder how necessary those are. I think I think it more so adds tonally and mood-wise than it really does to like the story.

Oh yeah, well, this whole movie is a mood. This whole movie's a mood, yeah. Yeah, because actually, as you'll find out in our summary, not that much happens. And it is a short movie, but like it's mostly a mood. Yeah, it's mood piece. So, anyway, beautiful, gorgeous, and glamorous senior rose is in the midst of a pregnancy scare, which turns out definitely being false, and claims her parents were misinformed about what day to pick her up so that she can chat with her boy fee. But that also means she's saddled with Kat, a freshman whose parents are no shows. They're alone on campus with two school nurses/slash nuns, who cat, under orders from Satan, stabs repeatedly before killing Rose herself, who had pissed her off by abandoning her earlier.

She takes the three heads of those ladies down to a boiler room to worship the big S, Satan, and is shot by a police officer. One one thing I will say though, before you continue, um, in the beginning, when you in the beginning, when you see her lay on the bed and she says daddy, and she's looking up, you think she's dreaming and like thinking about her father. That has to be Satan, right? In the dream or that she's speaking to she's speaking to him, like you think that she's dreaming about her dad. That's definitely her actually just talking to Satan. That that's like that's like no dream. Yeah, well, I do wonder, I couldn't help but wonder.

Um that first scene is so dreamlike, but also doesn't seem like a dream, but also is unspecific of like what actually happened. I mean, and I'm not this isn't a complaint, it's like just a poetic sequence. And I just wonder, Julianne, personally, do you feel like that is the truth of what happened? Because like we don't really find out what happens to her parents. I just wonder like, is that just like alas, they're not coming, or is that like they are in a car crash? I don't know. I'm just I wonder if they are in a car crash, it's it's framed in such a interesting, strange way that does not look like a car crash, you know.

I'm just curious. You know, I um God, that's such a that's such a loaded class. I you know, it's like I feel like because it's so vague, I I purpose purposefully vague. I feel like I feel like it could, it's more about that it's probably did actually happen, but I feel like it's more about it wants you to think about what caused it. Like, did Satan himself kind of have his eyes on her and was like, you know what? I'm gonna kill her parents and leave her lonely and she's gonna come suckling to me and I'm gonna be your daddy kind of thing, or that was not a necessary verb. Is it just kind of pure coincidence that this this girl was just she was meant, she was so she was meant for despair kind of thing?

I don't know. They don't tell you because it doesn't matter, but like it, I think that's more the purpose of like thinking about what why it happened as opposed to like did it actually happen? I think it did. Well, and I I think that you personally are eager to give Satan a lot of credit, but I also wonder like, was Kat doing a bit of witchery, you know, maybe she didn't want her parents to come get her. Yeah, or is it is it the two nuns in in the first place? You know, there's that rumor that they're they're satanic secretly. Is it them? We don't know. We it this movie, so there's so many open questions, and I love that about it.

Yes. Well, regardless, she goes to the hospital and a priest exorcises the devil from her, so doesn't matter. Then nine years later, it appears Kat has escaped from a mental institution and murdered a woman named Joan, stealing her identity. She meets a generous couple who offer her a ride to Bramford. She's actually going past, but whatever, they make it to Bramford. Cat slash Joan discovers that those are actually Rose's parents on an annual pilgrimage to honor their daughter. Too rich an opportunity to pass up, Cat slash Joan murders them and takes their heads to the school. But unfortunately, no sign of Daddy Devil. She screams. She wallows and cries. It's so tragic. She screams. And that's just such a like just that summary makes it sound so reductive, but like there's so much going on in this.

Like it is true. The the plot and the sequence of this film are very like, like, I mean, important, but like it's more, like I said, like this is an hour and a half movie that's not super long, but what I just read does not take an hour and a half to tell. Like, it is very much about the vibe. There are moments where it's just like we are seeing this completely just to set the mood and to kind of absorb this darkness, uh, which is cool. Um, but we clearly like it. I think so far that's no secret. Do others well on Rotten Tomatoes, the critic score is a 72%, and the audience score is a 49.

Boo! You're you know, your girl is she girls got the rotten tomatoes score. Oh, yeah. Everyone, round of applause for Julianne, who is now a Rotten Tomatoes certified critic. Oh, thank you. But you know, my job is the applause, it's deafening. You know, my first thing I'm gonna do is get my ass on Rotten Tomatoes and write up a write up a freaking review for Black Coat's daughter and get that shit up to 75%. That's too low. I don't that that baffles me. That baffles me. I can't. You think you can personally get it from 72 to 75? Girl, take a math class. Now, there is no critics consensus for the Black Coat's daughter because, like we said, this is kind of an under-the-radar slip-through movie for the masses.

Of course, I do think this has popularity among horror fans. I would love to know your critics' consensus of the Black Coat's daughter. Just like overall, for me personally, it's one of my favorite movies ever. Well, I I think this is a really important entry to the sub to the satanic subgenre of horror. Wow. Because it's not quite like anything else in terms of like this is this is one of the only movies. There's there's there are a few, but there are this is one of the only few that actually acknowledges like a young woman embracing and being quote unquote like liberated by Satan, where like something like the exorcist and you know, like freaking uh the exorcism of Emily Rose and like all these movies that are just like, oh, the poor teenage girl, the poor young girl, her body's been defiled by Satan, and oh no, and and we we gotta come, Christianity's gotta come in and swoop in and and and rescue her, and or if if not, it's like it's a tragedy that she passes, whatever.

In this case, she will, I mean, grant you, she's too young to fully consent for lack of a better word, but like this movie she wants it. She she wants it, she wants to be possessed by Satan, and we just don't see that. And I and I think I think that is that's what makes it one of the most important entries of this subgenre. Um, I think this should be studied, like this, this is a movie that should be studied in terms of like what like in in future books, academic books about like satanic horror films, like this one should be really recognized as like one of the best for me. Um I think the performances are fantastic.

I think the direction's fantastic. I think this movie's nearly flawless, in my opinion. Um I do, I do, I do. I think I don't I really don't have much negative to say about it. Um, yeah. Well, I would that I would love actually. Obviously, those are incredible things. And for everybody who are writing that study that you're talking about, like please credit me and Julianne in your essay because I know you're listening to this. Um and we're about to break it down for you. So get ready to take notes. Um, but I would love to hear, obviously, we could gush, but I would love to know like. Is there anything in this movie that just does not work for you?

Doesn't work for me. Not really. Um I think I see people kind of make qualms with like movies. And this happened with me with Goodnight Mommy as well. Where have you seen Good Night Mommy? No. Yeah, okay. Um, well, it's like people people it's kind of like the Nlight Shyamalcon curse where people are like, oh, I hear there's a twist in this movie. What is the twist good? In this case, I figured out the figured out the quote unquote twist, which I don't even would even consider a twist. It's more just like a it's like, oh, are you catching on to what's happening here? This is a twist. Right. But like it's that's kind of that's that's a little bit loaded, I think.

But like people criticize it for being let's like, oh, I figured that out in the beginning. That's not the that's not the importance of this movie. Like this, it's it's more just like it's kind of like, are you paying attention and following along what's happening? And then like you figured out within like a half hour that's what's going on. But I don't like I I don't have a problem with that, but I know some other people do, and I think that's an unfair criticism of it. Um, you know, and I do think, you know, there are movies that we've reviewed on this podcast, such as The Lodge. And I won't spoil the launch for you, but The Lodge is very much a movie that I feel like the the value and the point of the lodge is for there to be a twist.

It was written for a twist. And this movie, like you said, I do not feel like it was written for a twist. It is structured cleverly to where the twist is fun and exciting and like oh reveal. And of course, there are multiple twists. I mean, finding out that those are Rose's parents, that is, I think, a great emotional twist because of things that had just happened, conversations that had just been had. Um, and then finding out that uh Joan and Kat are the same characters, obviously the twist you're referring to. I do have to say, and I think I've said this on the podcast before, that I don't think I'm stupid, but I do think when I watch a movie, I don't know what it is, but I never can predict anything.

I am completely like victim to whatever the movie wants me to believe. I will believe anything the movie tells me. And so I do remember watching it this time, I was like, oh wow. Obviously the clues are not hiding. Um watching it the first time, I was just like, oh damn, oh damn. Like I was shocked by everything that happened the first time I saw this. Um but I know that I personally am very um, you know. You allow yourself to immerse in the movie, basically. You just you take it, take it for what they give you. Yeah, which that's really good. I I I wish I could be more like shut your brain off, just enjoy it, you know.

But like, but yeah, I I really this brain's always working. But I yeah, I other than that, I really I really think this is I I mean, I told you this is my favorite movies of all time. So I really don't have I I just can't pick out pinpoint anything that I would really change about it. I think it's just like you said, it's a mood piece. And I think that it the other little things, like you know, it's like, oh, maybe not enough happens, and like uh I don't care. I I I go along with the ride, and that's that's more than plenty for me. Yeah, well, speaking to my own emotions, not a lot does happen.

But like you said, like this is not, in my opinion, a boring movie either. I think that there's a lot of, you know, it's also kind of a deadpan movie. There's not like really over-the-top stuff, but I do think there is emotion in it, especially like I said, I think that the relationship that kind of develops between Joan and uh Rose's father, I think is really interesting and lovely. Uh well, I don't know, lovely is a word that maybe unpack later. Um, but I do think that even when I was watching it, there were a few things where I was like, huh, I don't know what that means. Is that just pretty for the sake of being pretty?

And by that, I'm I'm talking about like the slow motion scene where Rose walks in to the school picture. And I was watching, I was like, huh, I don't know why I needed that. But then later, her school picture is important. Yeah. And so I I just I think that there's really not a hair out of place here. Like, I do think that uh everything does connect and have value. And that I'm not saying that every image is like look, I think watching movies like this and Gretel and Hansel, um, I have not seen Oz Perkins' other movie, the with the hideously long title um on Netflix. But I think that when you watch something like these, the imagery in the atmosphere is so rich that it's easy to like put on your like high school English hat and be like, what does it mean?

What does it mean? And I don't think everything always means something, but it's about kind of the emotion and the feeling that these images are giving you. And I think that that's something unique and exciting about horror is horror is always, I think, really capitalizing on uh impactful imagery. And this movie is really giving you like things that it wants you to chew on after you've finished watching it. And I think it's really successful at that. Yeah, it really haunts you. And I think that's I I this is a perfect example of an A24 horror film, and that like it's all about the lingering, like it ends on a really sad note. It's it's it's sad, sad girl horror, and I I you know I love me some sad girl horror.

But like it's horror Del Rey. But like I think and I think this is what I I love so much about another movie we'll be talking about this month, which is another another girl, another sad girl horror is St. Maud, and that like these these characters are so lonely. And I think if you if you for me, like I grew up an early child, um, I had you know like I had a mostly good home life, but towards like towards before before my parents lit up, it kind of got a little ugly. And like I think I spent a lot of time in my room, kind of just like being a teenager and just being like, okay, I'm trying to get out of this, like this mindset and feeling super down and lonely.

And I and I this this movie, I've never seen another movie that kind of encaptures that like that that sense of loneliness, like just like that. Like and I wouldn't, she's way more desperate than I would ever have been. But like, but it's just it's just like it's that it's so sorrowful. And I and I love that about it because it's it's if you never felt that way, consider yourself lucky. But like she's just she is she needs something, and that the last I mean, well, I don't want to get into the last shot right now, but like it's just so tragic and it just it like breaks my heart and and it haunts me. And I think that that you can't put a price on like anything else, like that's it's like the stupid stuff with like worrying about like the plot, like that.

That's that's secondary. Like you said, the emotion behind this movie is is is primary, and I think that's the the horror of like loneliness and sorrow, it's just so few movies get it right like this one does for me. Yeah, and I mean I wouldn't call this in my top five horror movies or whatever you said. Like, I it's not a top movie for me, but I also I don't I don't think that I have any complaints about it, it just doesn't um quite move me the way it moves you, but I do agree that it's super effective at making you uh empathize with the characters who aren't always doing good things. Uh but I do want to something that you mentioned about uh, you know, we I feel like horror recently, you know, it's all about the elevated horror, which I prefer to call prestige horror because when people say elevated horror, they just mean horror that has more money put into it.

So I call it prestige horror. Um I feel like a lot of prestige horror is all-centric around grief. Hereditary is about grief, midsummer is about a certain breed of grief, the Babaduk is about grief. Like I feel like grief is something that seems to be the way to make a thematic horror movie, like, oh, we're gonna make a horror movie that means something, let's make it about grief. And that's not a hit. I like all those movies that I just listed. I'm just saying that grief seems to be the buzzword for horror movies. And I do think it's interesting you talk about loneliness. And what I was thinking about was loss during this movie, and how whether it's Kat's actual birth father or Satan or something, like she is dealing with a loss.

And what I like about this is she's not she's not grieving that loss. This movie is about her desperation to uh, I mean, if you're talking about like the stages of grief or something, like she's trying to to salvage that same feeling that she's had in the past, which I feel like is not necessarily something that I've seen explored in this way. I mean, the Babadook obviously is about grief that won't leave you. Uh right. But I do think that this, like you said, desperation is such a good word, but this like this like really desiring need to like know this is not happening, uh, I think is really palpable in this movie. I think here's the existential thing.

And I this is something I I kind of wrote kind of about this last year. Everybody is festive. Oh, wait, wait, wait. I did not even mention that. Yes, Julianne is an expert who's written an article about uh the black coat's daughter, which is, I believe, called Oh, what's the wording? The devil to make her do it. Yes, and I wanted to know are you getting paid by Warner Brothers for using that subtitle for the conjuring three The Devil Made Me Do It? Those bastards ripped me off. Because I pulled up your article the day to review it and was just like, oh um, I beat me, he beat me. Um but I will be linking that article in the show notes if you would like to read it.

Just look at the details on this episode. Thank you. No, I yeah, I but like I the question of the whole thing is like, is I I I argue that Satan is like a liberator of women. Um yes, which we've discussed on this podcast because you compare it to the witch. Yes, in the argument. Yes, the witch, the witch, um, a movie called Pioacket. This is also excellent. Um, a couple other things I mentioned, but like that the witch is obviously different in that like she's truly liberated, I think. In this case, I I think he God knows what to do with it. The desire for liberation is there, but she doesn't know what to do with it.

And I think that's a really like in comparison, like to Thomason and the witch, like like they're both around the same age, grant you. So Thomason has really been through something and she's experienced pain, and she's been um kind of cultivating this desire to be free for the entire movie. And so when Black Philip gives it to her, it's just like, yes. I wonder now, Kiernan Chipka. I mean, this this movie is white girls at boarding school. I mean, like Kieran and Chipka to say that she has experienced, like, I mean, I don't know what she's experienced in this movie. Perhaps she has experienced pain, but like, I mean, I'm not saying the witch is not a very white movie, but like to say that she's experienced a trial or tribulation of the same extent as Thomason, I think is a bit much.

And so I wonder if it's just like Kat has not experienced the sorrow and the the pain necessary to really feel like she needs that free. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, maybe she doesn't know what to do with it because she has no reason for needing it exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, I I I think I would disagree in terms of I I think she really she she's bringing to bring it back again. Like, she she's like she's sad girl, she's your typical sad girl where she just she needs something. And I think the emotional maturity is different between the two characters. Obviously, like Thomason is way more emotionally developed in the witch than she this this girl's got responsibilities, yeah, responsibilities.

Yeah, she's not a privileged little, you know, but but like but no, I I I really do think that she she misses her parents. I I think Kat Kat, I mean she doesn't have anyone, she has no friends. Um, I think one of the saddest scenes in the movie is is watching her perform in front of her classmates. As you called, as you said, that you called me out for saying meek and mild, but she is she's gonna be. It wasn't the meek and mild in Julian's article. She says her attempt at a musical performance or something. I was just like, bitch, like, hello, get Kiernan Shipka on the phone and tell it to her face.

I didn't mean her performance. I'm saying like her, it was she she's hiding something darker underneath there. That was my point. And I think Satan brings it out in her, she she she's so she's like one of those girls or one of those people, I should say, in high school that like you know that they that they're gonna get in with the wrong crowd because they just they they don't they're followers, like they don't they have no sense of identity or autonomy or any kind of like, hey, this is wrong, I shouldn't do that. Like they just don't they they they don't know what they believe in, and she's that's how she is, she doesn't know what she believes in.

So when like she wants she wants a daddy, right? Well, I have a question for you. Uh and it has no right answers, obviously. Um, I'm wondering who do you think is the protagonist of this film? Um I think it's Kat. I think Rose is merely an object. I think I think it's it's more I I I yeah, I just don't think that she's no, I I just I think she's more of like it's like look what look at all the things that Kat is not in comparison and like what she wants to be. She's she's a mere she's a mere sacrifice for for her. I mean, for God's sakes. Like it's not, it's really I I don't even think about Rose in this movie, to be honest.

I like she's not even like no, I just she's just shocking to me. Doesn't make much of an impact. Like, I just don't the movie's not about her, in my opinion. What's interesting to me is I I'm not I'm not disputing you, and I I actually had a purpose for bringing this question up, and you sidetracked me because I did not expect such rose erasure in your answer. Uh I will say that I expected you to say cat, but I mean you didn't have to be rude. Um, I think that in the Joan storyline, so since Kat and Joan, I I'm just separating their names because just to clarify the storylines, of course, they're the same person, but Kat Joan, uh, they they are so emotionless.

And um I think that Kat has to have Rose as kind of an emotional anchor, and Joan has to have is his name Bill, whatever. Rose's father, yeah, uh as an emotional anchor. Like they both need that emotional being or presence to make their storyline one more interesting and two more impactful. Because why would we care about such kind of a a feelingless person? Um, I agree with you. I do think that Kat's the main character, and something that's always, of course, really interesting about horror is that it can twist who we are supposed to care about and who we're supposed to empathize with. But I I love Rose. I think Rose is so good. I think that she is so, I don't know.

I mean, one, she's just a queen. When she walks in for that picture in slow motion, it's like, okay, go off. But honestly, the first half of the movie, so it when it before it flips in that last piece to be cat's perspective. I would say that for half of the movie, I think Rose is the protagonist. Like she's she's almost like the final girl that then is the the script is flipped. Because I just think that Rose to me is interesting. I mean, she's having this pregnancy scare. Her boyfriend obviously does not care. She does not, she ends up not even being pregnant. I don't know. I just feel like she's such a real character because she's not a bad girl, you know, she's not doing crazy stuff.

She's no like we summon the darkness, unrelatable like caricature of a bad girl. She's a bad girl that has feelings and like is going through real things and like seems like a bitch, but also has purpose. I don't know. I really enjoy Rose. There the scene that I kind of felt a little bit more empathy for her was when was this was towards I mean, the scene when Kat is possessed and at this point, like she's really feeling it, and they're sitting at dinner with the two nuns, and she starts vomiting after a prayer. And Rose looks at her like, oh shit, like this, like this something is wrong with this girl. But like in a way, but no, like it, but in a way that like I felt like I was like, Oh, she actually cares about this girl.

Like, like before I thought she was really mean and kind of bitchy to her. And I'm like, Oh, she actually she's concerned where she actually like, I think there's something there, and watching her die is really is tragic. Like, I when she when Kat stabs her to I mean that's that is brutal, and I think it's so sudden. Yeah, it's so sudden. Um I think another thing is also like aside from the characters themselves, like the the devil himself in this movie is so grounded, and I think that's not that is so uncommon in horror films. Like, like for example, that in Piawacket, which I I brought up, like I think you have never seen Piawacket, you said you haven't seen Piawacket?

Like that the big lead up is like, oh, the big scares of the devil, and how's you know, in this movie, like this movie's so like the devil's just kind of anywhere. Like he skulks around and kind of he picks a vulnerable host, but like he has little power other than that. Like he's not like I think the whole reason why he doesn't stick around or come back to Kat is because he doesn't really like he she didn't really do much for him. Like, like, yeah, she killed a few people, whatever, but like he doesn't she didn't really get that he didn't really give her, or I'm sorry, she didn't really give him the power that he could have used from her from her body.

Does that make sense? Like she was almost like too weak, yeah. I mean, even so, yes, Rose dying is tragic, and I think I mean I don't want to call it like twist number three, but like it is it is it happens in a way where for a brief moment it's like, oh, like she is the upper hand, like she can totally get away, but then no, she it's so sudden. Um, but I think on the opposite side, the the dad is so the same way where we see his kind of like unbound generosity, like he is doing like incredibly kind things for for Joan, like things that normal people wouldn't do. And he has this conversation with her.

Do you believe in God, Joan? No. Just like that. Ever tried to look for him? Strange. People think you look for him in some book, or in a church, a statue, maybe even a candle flame. But that's not how it works for me. I look for him, and the unlikely things are happening. Coincidences. When I saw you sitting at Hebus station, you reminded me so much of someone. Someone I haven't seen in a long time. And then, when you said you were going to Portsmouth, a coincidence like that, I just can't ignore it. So strange as it may sound, I guess I saw God in you. And what's interesting to me is obviously he's being super Christian about it, but also he's not being super like evangelical about it.

He's kind of talking about the emotion, or not the emotions, the um, he's talking to her about goodness and kindness and reality, yeah, doing what's right. And um, so then when he dies, it's interesting because it's like that to me, like speaking in like storytelling terms, like that's a hero dying. And so it's just I don't know, I'm fascinated by Kat, I think is is the the character that we we love, but just what she does is so complicated, and I'm just fascinated by like us feeling feeling for a character that's being awful in this movie, not trying to be like anti-hero, so cool. Like the movie's like, yeah, no, she's doing bad things to good people.

Yeah, and that's what makes a great movie, right? If if you don't, if you can watch people do horrible things, and if you care about them, it doesn't matter because you care about them, so you're invested. I think and I think that's the whole idea this movie wants to explore, is that like like you had mentioned, we were talking about this before about like the Bible itself and Christianity is it always needs like a hero and a villain, right? It's like it's like it's always it's like you know, Christianity's the hero, God's the hero. In this case, it's like who really is the hero or the villain? Like it's complicated than that, it's much more complicated than that.

And I think like as we've learned more about Like to bring it back to like Satan's satanic stuff. Like, there's an excellent book I mentioned in that article by um an author named Per Faxeneld. Um, it's called I don't get the exact title right. Hold on. Satanic Feminism, Lucifer as the Liberator of Woman in 19th century culture. And he makes the I think it was published in like 2017. It's really excellent. He makes the point that like Satan is not this like evil doer as much as Christianity wants you to think that he is. Like it's almost like he's like he is the one who kind of is just like pushing the woman to like, you know, be be yourself, be more, be more, be more not to say liberated again, but like I think that's what's going on here is that like it's not it's much more complicated than that.

Well, it's about perspective. It's that perspective, and like everybody's a villain to someone, right? And I think that could be, and I think that's an excellent wraparound for like what we view Satanism now, like the Church of Satan, which has been around for quite some time, I think like the 60s it was founded, I believe. Um, but like that they like they actually believe in the devil and worship the devil. This the satanic temple does not, and I think which is interesting, it's like that in that in that terms of that, it's like it's more like a it's it's a guy, it's a guideline of values where it's like it's not they're not saying to go be a shitty person, but just like be more self-servitude and kind of be more like do things for yourself where Christianity would tell you to do things love thy neighbor.

Satanism argues to like just yeah, love love your neighbor if you want, but like love yourself and do things that make you happy and fulfill yourself. And I think that's kind of what this movie is getting at, but it wasn't quite it's it's too it's a little more vague than that. Well, what's interesting in your article you mentioned the documentary Hill Satan, which is very yeah. Um, and what I took away from that, which I don't know as much about uh this as you do, um, but it's it's like I said, about perspective. And of course, like we're at least in America, like in a very Christian-centric um culture. And of course, when you're reading the Bible and you're a Christian, like you're taught like God is good, Satan is bad.

But like that's because that's what you're told. It's the same thing as any war, like both sides think that they're the hero. And what I gathered from the Hail Satan documentary, and I'm not quite sure of the differentiations between those different churches that you're just talking about, but what I enjoyed is that it was more saying that it was a social movement, that this group wasn't necessarily believing in Satan as a person, but using provocative imagery from this dominant culture to challenge people's beliefs and say, like, hey, you not everyone's a Christian, you can't treat everyone this way. And I think that's what's really interesting. And obviously, this movie is an amplification, it's taking it literally.

But I mean, yeah, I think there's some value to that where it's like obviously Kat's doing bad things. I'm not saying people go kill people and be like, well, yeah, it's all about perspective. But like if you take things less literally, like maybe Kat's not the villain if she's not killing people. If you're killing people, you're a villain, is what I'm saying. Uh, and I don't like you. Do not talk to me if you've killed people. I do not want to know. Well, well, I think well, I think here's the thing though. I think like what it is though, is that like she she's not evil. Like, I don't think she's inherently evil. I think like she, I you could tell she almost she's cold, but she almost she does feel bad when she does when she does kill, like when she kills the parents, like she kind of like you see, she's kind of like struggling with it a little bit.

She puts like the makeup on her face and she's kind of like shit, I gotta do this, but she does it because she wants that companionship to him. Well, yeah, she's purposeless, is what that's the main thing. Is she doesn't have purpose, she's looking for purpose, right? Right. It's not like I don't think it's she's not doing it because she's just like this horrible person. Again, no excuses, man. I'm just saying that, but it's just like it's more it's more complicated than that. Like it just I would like to put out the blanket statement that both of us keep dreaming up. We are not condoning murder. Don't do it for anyone, yes. If Satan calls you on the phone, which I would still like to see the other side of that phone call, if he calls you on the phone and tells you to kill people, I tell you, do not.

I'm also in your ear, and I'm saying do not kill people. How okay, listen, less existential crises. Let's just talk about how how awesome is that shot of him in in the hospital room with her, that silhouette. It's so, it's so haunting. And you see it, you see it in the beginning too, but it's not that they kind of go back to it. Like he's he's everywhere, he's in the room. Um when she's it's like it's like her and Rose. It's like Rose. He's I like that one better. It's so you like that one better? Yeah, but it's just so like like I've never seen like that that subtleness of Satan before in any other movie.

Like, well, I mean, there's there's interesting, there's a lot of interesting imagery. I mean, the Satan um the Satan figure is cool. I like when you see his reflection in the bathroom, it's cool. But I I also like um when Rose looks through that tiny window into the boiler room and you see uh Kat do like it's not like a bow, it's like a weird like body undulation, like she flings herself forward. Yeah, I think that's really striking. The scene where she does the backbend, the backbend is silly. I think I do not condone that back bend, but when it shows her under the sheets with her face, kind of like you know, it it's it's eerie because you know that when you're in bed, me as a person watching that movie, I know that when I'm in bed, I do not put my face directly down into the sheets.

Like that's a weird thing to do. And so, like the image of her, like kind of like with her face in the bed, like that's spooky. Then the backbone is like, okay, like someone's been stretching, but um, I do yeah, a little sexual, right? That's a little like something's going on, and she's I think it's just a little hokey, yeah. But but like, yeah, but like I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, something's going on there. Yeah, she's looking for a daddy. What kind of daddy she wants, though? Like I said, the face, the face gives me more than the back bend. The backbend is just like, all right, possession movie, check. Yeah, yeah, I guess.

Yeah, I mean, it's I'm not saying I don't want it. It is an exciting scene and it is done in an interesting way, but talk about the ending real quick though. The ending that doesn't destroy you, it doesn't like destroy me, but like it it really the way she wallows, like it just it like it kills me. I don't know. I you don't do you feel that way about that. I think that the scene where she touches the furnace and it's clear that she's like, please light for me. Um, I think that that is an emotional moment. The very last year I agree. I do think that that is does the job. Um, I don't know, it's not as moving to me as it seems like it is for you, but I do think it's like a clear expression of what's happening.

Like, I don't dislike it, is what I'm saying. But like you seem like you're like really, really into that last scene. But no, I like the furnace thing. I think the furnace thing is more interesting to me. No, yeah, I I actually would agree with you. The furnace thing is actually pretty, yeah. That that's where you're like, oh shit, like she's she's alone. And I think well, she's brought heads. I love she's brought heads, she she she she's tried. I mean, but yeah, he doesn't come. Um I I always wonder like where like if he's a he's not around clearly, but like where does he go? Like where where has he been? Like, is he sped as well?

Like, it's just so there's so many questions that I'm always like everywhere. That's the thing is like it's not that he just missed her, you know. It's like, oh shoot, like she was there and I was late. Like he boasts in her ass. Yeah, yeah. He's like it is an act of choice that he is not adhering to her. So yeah, I do think it's tragic. Julian, sweet, sweet Julianne. What would you say in The Black Coat's daughter is your most memorable murder? There are you, there are a few. For me, probably the parents and the father, especially. I think when she when she when when Joan takes out the the butcher knife and slits him across there, I'm like, oh, I think I think only because I I I I don't I have empathy for Rose, but I had more empathy for her parents personally, or for her father, I should say, specifically.

So I think when that moment happens, I'm like, oh God, I'm like, I feel like this poor man, he's in grief, he's he's he's hurting, and she just cuts his throat and beheads him, and that's it. Well, yeah, and like I like I kind of said in the summary, like of course it's a movie, so of course it's convenient, but like if you think of this, like that if this were reality, like of course Joan would be like fate, of course, he has been sent to me. Um so I do think it's interesting parallel if you can suspend that disbelief. Which I mean, it makes sense. If they're going back for the anniversary, and so is Joan, like it makes sense.

I mean, for me, it's Rose. What I can't believe you would even think I would say anything else that is so sad. I love Rose, she's gorgeous. Um on a scary scale, one through five, how would you rate the black coat's daughter? Um I'm going a solid three, three and a half, three and a half. Yeah. I think uh I think there are some moments that genuinely unnerve me that yeah, I think this movie's uh I think this movie's pretty up there for me. Yeah. Uh I'm gonna say two and a half. I think it is disturbing. It's the darkness. Oh wait, no, no, no. Yeah, for some reason, every time I think about this movie, I forget how incredibly gruesome and horrific it is when she is stabbing people 5,000 times.

So actually, I'll take it up to 3.5 as well because I don't know why I keep forgetting about that. Um, even in the movie, yeah, when she kills the nun and is like, I was like, oh my god, please stop. Like, ew. And then I forget about it, and then she does it to Rose. And I was like, Oh my god, like stop. I know then I forget about it, and then she does it to the parents. I'm like, stop. And for me, and for me too, it's it's it's Karen or it's Kat her the look in her eyes, it's just it's like you're like, girl, like that, like that is that is terrifying. Like, she's what do you mean?

Like dead inside, you're saying? Yeah, like she has no emotion about it. Oh, yeah, she's just so cold in it. Yeah, it's that's what really gets me. Yeah, I was like, girl, that hair is greasy. The shot of her, um, as this picture I use in in in the article, like the she's like she's has she's over. Is it Rose's body she's killing in that moment? But she's she's kind of hovering over the body with a knife. Like, that's that imagery is like perfect. Uh, we didn't even get into like Satan calls Satan keeps calling her baby girl. I want to be I want to be called baby girl by Satan too. Let me tell you the truth.

When he's on the phone with her, I cranked my volume and I couldn't tell what he's saying. And I I thought about putting on the subtitles, and I was like, I'm not doing it. I had to put on subtitles, yeah. The first time I was like, what is he saying? I had to put on subtitles, but yeah, he's like, baby girl, kill the gods. That's terrifying, Julien. As the French would say, would you give the black coat's daughter a smash or a slash? Satan, take me, take me as I am, take me, take me and smash me against the wall, Satan. Yes, take me away. And the great face-off of your favorite scary movie that you've stated on this podcast, Rosemary's Baby versus the Black Coat's daughter.

I'm going to need you to claim one victor. Oh no, I said, Oh god, I went my journey was no, I don't care what your journey is. I want to know. Rosemary's baby and the black coat's daughter are in the fucking ring, and somebody has to die. No, don't make me do that. Sorry. The rules. We're gonna roll. Um, I'll say no. I can already tell that you're gonna do something tricky. No, Satan's in my body, wants me to do the bad thing. Um, um, I don't like where that went. I uh I oh you know what? I I actually I prefer to watch Black Coat's daughter, but Rosemary's Baby is the the better and more important movie, and you know that.

So my favorite scary movie. I'm sticking with last week's beautiful film Black Swan. That movie slays. Um, but so does Black Coat's daughter. It's just not my favorite scary movie when it comes to Black Swan. Um, all right. Well, Juliana Lass, goodbye. It was nice seeing you, nice knowing you. But next week she will not return. It will be me, Caroline, and Ian yet again. We are watching the new Nicholas Cage romp, I'm sure, Willie's Wonderland. So you can look forward to that. It is on VOD Friday, February 12th. And I think it's really gonna be a grand time. So, Willie's Wonderland next Monday. Check it out, love it, live it. Um, and I look forward to seeing all of the listeners there for that.

While you're waiting for us to review the brand new movie Willie's Wonderland, which you can watch on VOD on Friday, February 12th. You can head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review. We would love to hear from you and how much you're enjoying the show. If you're not enjoying the show, well, you don't have to leave a comment. That's rude. But if you do love it, love you too. And of course, my name is Parker. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, and Letterboxd at Parker Dale Ray and Julianne, because everybody is just whipping out their phones right now because they want to go give you a follow online. Where can they find you?

You can follow me at being snarky on Twitter at the Jewel Marie, or you can look at my life through pictures on Instagram at the Jewel Marie. Hmm. Yes, indeed. And if you want to find more what's your favorite scary movie, you can head on over to uh Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram at ScarymoviePod for all the juice. You can get even more what's your favorite scary movie at patreon.com slash scary moviepod for mere pocket change. You can get bonus episodes and writing from yours truly. And uh of course, you can always send us an email at scary moviepod at gmail.com and check out our website, scary moviepod dot com. Um, and of course, hail Satan, good night.

Kill the cuts.