Black Swan

Our new Swan Queen, the exquisite Nina Sayers. Lily, you're gonna be amazing. Watch the way she moves. Sensual. She's not faking it. Seduces! Attack it! Attack it! Come on! Where'd you get these? It's nothing. You sweet girl. You're my touch. Respond to it. So's hot for teacher. I don't want to talk about that. We really need to relax. It's the role, isn't it? It's all this pressure. I knew it'd be too much. I knew it. What's she doing here? He made me your alternate. The only person standing in your way is you. I have my ways. She's after being. Nobody's after you. Please believe me. What happened to my sweet girl? She's gone. Hello, Sydney. Hi.

Who is this? It's your killer host. My name is Parker, your resident horror fanatic. I'm Caroline, Scaredy Scream Queen. I'm Ian, Scary Movie Skeptic. And welcome to. What's your favorite scary movie? What's your favorite scary movie is a horror film podcast where we're on a journey to find our favorite scary movie one at a time. Whether you hate them or love them, join us and discover yours. Spoilers ahead, so plan your movie screening every weekend before the episode release. Okay. So from what I understand, pull your shoulder blades together in the center of your back so your chest is really open. Roll your shoulders back. Then with your arms out to the side, think that you're making circles with your elbows.

Yes. And then as the circles get bigger, you let your arms kind of follow the trail and you become the swan. Ooh, that looks gorgeous. A little too much shoulder action, Caroline. Yeah, well, it was kind of like loosening up my shoulders for me. I needed to do that throughout the workday. That's nice. Oh my god, gorgeous. So, Laney's, if you're wearing an open back dress and you want to look snatched, do a little swan follow Parker's guide to do a little swan arms. And, you know, a little disclaimer for this episode, we have a couple of experts in the room. Yes, that's right. Caroline and I both have degrees in dance. Expert training. And I took tap lessons as a child.

I was about to say Elon is no stranger to a dance floor either. He has the lineage in his blood. And gorgeous arches. Isn't that the worst about men who don't dance? They always have great feet. I know. Sometimes I see him noodling around sometimes, and I'm like, you would have been a great dancer. Noodling. Yeah, exactly. Define noodle for me, Caroline. It's exactly what you want. Walking around in circles. He's noodling. Talking to myself. Well, if you um have not connected the dots between Dance and Ian talking to himself, we are looking at the uh psychological horror film Black Swan. Oh. Do you hear that? Wait, no, that's not that one. Is it? That's a different one.

But dun. Yeah. That's the foite part. Yeah, that's the black swan, coda. So yes, black swan, black swan. You know, it's funny. I had an article published in December about the 10-year anniversary of Black Swan. So if you want to read a little bit about me interviewing some, you know, New York City ballet ballerinas, I'll put the link in the bio. Or not in the bio, in the show notes. I actually I was so excited to record this message that I went and re reread that article of yours, Parker, just so I could get your stance and formulate my thoughts on this film. Exactly. And I went back and reread it too because I just was like, Parker, you're so smart.

Alright, well, so that article was a 10-year anniversary celebration of Black Swan. So, yes, correct. Black Swan was released in the year 2010 in December. It was directed by Darren Aronofsky, who you might recognize as the writer-director of Requiem for a Dream 2000. Ask to ask. Have y'all seen that? No. Oh. A harrowing music all the time, though. Harrowing experience. You gotta see it. Uh, and The Fountain in 2008 and Mother in 2017. Black Swan was written by Mark Heyman, Andres Hines, and John J. McLaughlin. So there's kind of a story behind this. Hines originally wrote a screenplay called The Understudy about off-Broadway actors, their understudies, and being haunted by a doppelganger. Hmm. Aronofsky had been talking to Natalie Portman about creating a ballet-based film as early as 2000 and hired McLaughlin to transpose Heinz's screenplay over to the dance world from the theater world.

Then the project chilled for a bit until Aronofsky found more mainstream prestige with The Wrestler, which he's discussed being the male counterpart to Black Swan. And then finally, Heyman, director of development at Aronofsky's production company, did the final rewrite before they began filming. So kind of a an orchestra of voices coming together to create this story. It's cool. Of course. One of the most important things about Black Swan that I love is the music, which was composed by Clint Mansell, but was based on the original score by Tchaikovsky from Swan Lake. So what I love about this music, and I think y'all can chime in on this too, is that, you know, in ballet, when dancers aren't speaking, like in classical ballets like Swan Lake, the music has to act as part of their voice and part of the storytelling because if without it there's nothing auditory, which is an important sense.

And so usually in movies, the music a lot of times is a little more understated because it's just one element of what you're trying to take in your ear holes. And in Black Swan, the music sometimes is so overwhelming and gorgeous that it becomes such a piece of the like artistry of the movie. And I love that it takes classical motifs from Swan Lake, like the bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, and turns it into like the horror score, which I've never seen. I think it's so cool how it kind of morphs the original music into its own mood and theme. I think that's so cool. Sad. But copyright. Well, not quite. You gotta have originals.

That's why when we get West Side Story, we're gonna get a new song. When we get Defiant, or when we get Wicked the Movie, we're gonna get a new song. When did you see Dear Evan Hans in the movies coming out in September? I just got an ad for that last night. I'm so pumped. It's gonna have a new song, I guarantee it. Lion King, we got a new terrible song. Oh my god. Don't get me started on that trash. Caroline, it's your turn with the actors. The Queen herself. Natalie Portman as Nina Sayers, the Swen. I just have to big shout out to Natalie Portman. I know that her agent's gonna listen to this and be like, we finally got the shout-out we wanted.

But like, she is just one of the most incredible actors, I think, ever. She morphs into whatever character she is becoming. And I feel like, unless you watch a lot of interviews from her, you have no idea who she is because she's so different every time she's in a movie. I will, I would like to agree with Caroline, and especially in Black Swan, when you see such an immense transformation from the beginning of the movie to the end of the movie, that's like watching, you know, obviously it's the point of the movie, two different characters in one role. It's pretty heartstopping. She just like nails the timid ballerina, and then I just got goosebumps when she is performing her black swan, and she's like backstage, like totally in it.

I oh, there's a gif of when she like she's having some sort of like sexy, I don't know, something, and she like pulls the lace off of her face and is like walking. I there's a gif of that that I've been watching over and over because it is such a vibe, and totally like in her expression, and she's not even like saying anything. Eric was acting, yeah. So yeah, at no point in this movie was I thinking, wow, she is acting well, it was just she was Nina. It was amazing. Um, okay, so obviously she has a large catalog of work. Um her genre work includes Annihilation in 2018, totally different character, nailed it, V for Vendena in 2005, the Star Wars prequels, and Thor side of the Marvel Universe.

Um she won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her performance in Black Swan. 100% deserved it. Um Mila Kunis as uh Lily or the Black Swan. Was she the Black Swan? That's what she's billed at. So uh the credits all have like a fun little extra title for each person. And so in the credits, Mila Kunis plays Lily the Black Swan. Did I just say Mila? You did, yeah. Mila Kunis. Well, I think she's gorgeous, she's stunning. Wow, what a brave, what a brave opinion. What? You're really ruffling swan feathers. Swan feathers. I think she's beautiful. Anyways, um, her agent's gonna listen to this and be like, finally, we got the shout out. Uh she was in American Psycho 2, all-American girl from 2002, and Jupiter Ascending in 2015.

Vincent Cassell as Tomas Leroy, or The Gentleman. Wow, these names are fun. Um the third season of Westworld. Um Westworld. I'm not Yeah, Westworld. Um, this movie also features Barbara Hershey as Erica Sayers, the Queen. Is that her mom? Yes. Uh Winona Ryder as Beth McIntyre or the Dying Swan, and Benjamin Millipede as David or The Prince. Oh, and you want to know more about Benjamin? I'm not sure. I heard someone in the behind the scenes say Millipier, but I don't want to pretend I'm that fancy, so I'll say Millipede as well. He was the choreographer for Black Swan. He's a former principal dancer at New York City Ballet, where he also choreographed work before founding LA Dance Project.

He also did a brief stint as director at Paris Opera Ballet from 2014 to 16 and has choreographed work for American Ballet Theater and the Metropolitan Opera. And then to bring it in a little bit to something more fun, Natalie Portman and Benjamin Millipede met working on Black Swan and were married in 2012. Oh, wow. Oh, interesting. So, and I mean, it's interesting to note, you may be saying, like, choreographed the movie, Swan Lake has been going around since the 1800s. Well, uh, as uh professionals like Caroline and myself will know, there's a huge difference between, you know, a stage recording of a ballet, which during COVID has been a lot of what we're seeing because big ballet companies have been putting out recordings for people to watch.

Um, to me, that's a little bit boring. I want to see it in person or kind of not, but Black Swan has all of this interesting choreography made for film. That very first sequence where Nina is kind of swirling around in that one spotlight and that scary swan monster is attacking her. I mean, that I think is a really incredible dance sequence that was made specifically for the movement of the camera. And so there's a lot of just this movie, watching the behind-the-scenes stuff, there's not that much that I'm going to share on this episode because it was just them shooting a movie. But it is incredible how many elements went into making this movie. And even like when they were filming the on-stage sequences, they were talking about how they basically had to put on a full production of Swan Lake and then film it.

It's pretty cool. That's cool. Do you know anything about Natalie Portman's ball Portman's ballet training? Oh, I do indeed, and I guess we can do this little sidebar while we're here. So Natalie Portman and Mila Kunas both started training six months before the um filming for this movie. Natalie Portman said she did five hours a day of strength training and ballet training. And Mila Kunas said that she lost 20 pounds for this movie, which she already was a twig. Um, and so they did do an immense amount of training with professional dancers and obviously were being trained to do the specific movements that they had to do in this movie. A bit of a controversy arose because obviously Ballerina's trained their entire life to get to the level that Nina's character is at in the movie, and some ballerinas never get there.

And so you can't do that in six months. So they did have dance doubles, and famously, uh, Natalie Portman's dance double was an American ballet theater soloist named Sarah Lane, and there was this whole controversy about how she felt like she wasn't given enough credit for her work in the movie. And I mean, basically, Sarah Lane is doing like the scene where she's doing the black swan coda and the wings are growing out of her, and then they transplanted Natalie Portman's face onto her. But so there was a lot of controversy. Every dancer that I talked to was like, wow, they really jipped Sarah Lane because everybody thought that was Natalie Portman performing. And even uh a New York City ballet dancer that I interviewed was like, we kept getting calls because they did Swan Lake the season after um this movie came out, and she was like, We kept getting calls asking if Natalie Portman was performing.

And that's pretty hilarious. But I'm just kind of like, girl, what did you think you were doing on this movie? Like the whole point is that you're supposed to be like one with Natalie Portman, and you're supposed to be her character. Like, I don't know, grow up, get a life. Yeah, exactly. You're the double, you're getting paid to be the double. Yeah. I I think that whole controversy is a little stupid. Acting the part? No. Probably not. And if anybody were like, wow, she didn't do the dancing, Natalie Portman can get fucked with that Oscar. No, this role I think is like. She didn't win the Oscar because of her dancing. She won the Oscar because of her acting.

And even some of the stuff in the behind the scenes that she did do the dancing for, I thought looked really good. Like her doing those little borets in place with the Swan Arms while her stomach is bleeding. That was her, and she looked great. Mm-hmm. So. Alright. Moving on. Oh, also, I should have said why I even thought we should do Black Swan right now in February. One, it's because I think that Swan Lake is a ballet that frequently goes on in people's winter seasons. So while we're not able to go see Swan Lake at the ballet, I thought, how fun for us to do Black Swan. And number two, is there's a holiday that comes up every February called Valentine's Day.

And we'll get into this a little bit more later, but I thought, what better way to celebrate Valentine's Day than with a little self-love. And if you're wondering what happened in Black Swan, well, he picked me, Mommy. Nina Sayers is a soloist at fictional version of New York City Ballet. And she's finally been cast in a principal role. The Swan Queen in Swan Lake. Nina is quiet, dainty, and proper. Perfect for playing the white swan in Swan Lake. But can Nina take on the cruel sensuousness of the black swan? Nina starts cracking as she's pulled between her overbearing mother's protection and artistic director Tomasa's sexual advances. On top of that, Lily, a new soloist with the company, is pulling attention with her wild and rousing dancing, and the company's previous star, Ballerina, has thrown herself into traffic in a jealous rage over Nina's promotion.

Lily steals Nina away from her mother for a crazy night out that ends up with some hot girl-on-girl action, if I will say. But when Nina arrives late to rehearsal to find Lily has been cast as her alternate, it appears Lily isn't only interested in Nina's badge. On opening night, Nina is becoming unhinged and has officially had it when she finds Lily in her dressing room threatening to steal the roll. Nina slams Lily into the mirror and stabs her in the stomach with a glass shard. I'm sorry, the old Nina can't come to the phone right now. Oh because she's dead. I literally thought of that line while watching this movie. Yep. Nina gives a show-stopping performance as the Black Swan, and when she returns to her dressing room, she discovers that Lily had never been in her room.

She had been battling herself and has a gaping wound in her stomach. She finishes the ballet, and as the cast rushes backstage to congratulate her, she's bleeding out. As she dies, she says, I felt it. Perfect. It was perfect. Oh, and just like the end of The movie E and I am crying over your line reading there. It was gorgeous. Scene. Perfect. The Rotten Tomatoes critic score is an eighty-five percent, and the audience score is an eighty-four percent. Very, very close together. The critics' consensus is quote bracingly intense, passionate, and wildly melodramatic. Black Swan glides on Darren Ernofsky's full direction in a bravura performance from Natalie Portland. Gorgeous. Black Swan was nominated for Best Film Editing, Best Cinematography, Best Director, and Frickin' Best Picture.

Ooh, ooh, ooh. Mm-hmm. Now I'm going to start the ball off with my critics' consensus of Black Swan. And if you've been wondering this whole time, like, wow, I can't tell if Parker liked Black Swan. Well, I love it. Black Swan is a masterpiece, in my opinion. Like I said earlier, there are so many nuances to the artistry of this movie, down to like the grain and texture of the image and the way that they have combined arts to make this like one product. The music is absolutely incredible. And I've said a few times on this podcast that some movies need a little bit of the Gremlins treatment where it just goes over the top and gets crazy and wild and no holds barred.

Black Swan is a Gremlins movie. It is absolutely insane. It goes off. It really goes off. It just like, if you wanted to take a ballet movie and make it as wild as possible, I challenge you to make something more wild than Black Swan because Black Swan is absolutely insane. And on top of that, a movie that can become so controversial and have so many, like, ooh, what do you think this means? What do you think this means? Is just a testament to the richness of the text, the performances, phenomenal. I think that it's crazy. I will say, I think that it is a bizarre situation of a movie about women that does have, I think, a very intensely masculine gaze, the whole movie, which is strange.

But I think that overall, as a work of art, it is phenomenal. As an uh a thing to be discussed, it I think is sometimes problematic. But before we talk about that, let's hear what you two turds think about this. I'm imagining this consensus in bright lights, like those Broadway reviews that you see on posters. So here you go. Stunning. A show-stopping performance. Natalie Portman is in her best role yet. The cinematography gave me chills. Thank you. Oh, self-love, indeed. Ian, what'd you think? Delightful. Some could say that this was almost perfectly executed as a movie. Are your dying words it was perfect? I thought what was an interesting um and I'm curious to hear everyone's perspective on this, but when we were watching it, Caroline and I both remember when this came out.

We were obviously much younger and we were um in very different parts of the US at very different times. And I just remember, which is just so comical and funny to think about now, but I didn't see it, but like my mom and my sister went to see it, and everyone was going to see it. That was quote unquote old enough, right? But like the overall theme was basically that there is um women-on-women action in this movie. It was the talk of the town. It was the the talk, the T. And I feel I'm glad you brought that up because I feel like now at this point in the world's timeline, we are much more open to talking about that.

And it's really sad that when this came out, our generation and maybe like some more like our conservative parents at the time, that was the only thing they could see out of this movie. And like that was like, oh yeah, great movie, but you know, this problematic scene. But now that I watch it, I'm like, there are so many more problematic things happening other than that scene. Yeah, uh, when this movie came out, I wasn't allowed to see it, and I actually hadn't started dancing yet, and I wanted to see it so bad, especially because I wasn't allowed to see it. So I ended up finding a way to sneak it. And the way that I wept at the end of this movie, oh, it was moving to me.

But yeah, you're right. Everyone that I knew was like, this is the Satan movie of the year. I feel like there were frequently movies that's like only sinners see that movie, and Black Swan was definitely Harry Potter. Harry Potter was a controversial topic at my church because they wanted to love it. Um, but it it was like the movie that was like on every good Christian mother's like blacklist. And I just think I think also once I started getting to know dancers, like Black Swan was my cultural point of reference for like, oh, this is the dance that I've seen before I started dancing. And the way that every ballerina I ever met loathes this movie is really, I think, interesting to me because they're like, everyone I've talked to is like, this is not what it's like being a ballerina, this is not what the dance world looks like.

And obviously, movies are made to be kind of, well, some of them are kind of like exaggerations of reality. I don't even think this movie's that exaggerated. Like, I know women trying to tell me that at the very top of the professional dancing space there that that that level of competition and cattiness is not. Well, that's the thing. And the misogyny from the men who are. The misogyny is there. You can read my article to read all about real life controversies that reflect what happened in this movie. And I know ballerinas who are exactly like Nina, who they get done with a full day of dancing and they go home and they're stretching and they're practicing their moves and stuff.

I think that pretty much every element of this movie, maybe aside from schizophrenia, is accurate. And I mean, who am I to say that ballerinas don't have schizophrenia? Uh, I just think that that's a less common thing to happen. I mean, that specific no, but mental health in the dance industry at large is a huge problem. So I didn't think that it was like that, that to me didn't upset me because I think it was just bringing to light that issue. Yeah. I mean, I've had moments in my tiny little dance career where I knew that I there was this class, and I we had a bunch of people coming in to watch us do kind of like a showcase performance for the final for this class, and I just was not feeling confident about my variation that I had to perform in front of all of these like jocks and frat guys.

And I just had a moment where I stepped out of the studio before I did, I cried for a few minutes, and then I was just kind of like, you can do it. And I had a very Nina Sayers moment where I had a breakdown and then I looked at myself and I slathered my face in my white swan makeup and started laughing like a maniac, and then I killed myself. Congrats, the ghost of Parker is with us now. Exactly. So yeah, I think you're right that like it's not it's not difficult to crack in the high pressure of like a world where every single movement that you make is so criticized. I do think it's crazy that if you want your dancer and your work to be the best, the last thing I would do is ridicule um everything, but you know, that's Tomas' method.

I would say I I feel like this doesn't only transcend um the dance space. I think like it's just another example of being at the top of any industry or uh profession or craft. I think like in order to be at that level, there's there's a lot of weirdness and intensess that goes on. Yeah, and I mentioned earlier that Aronofsky has said that this is kind of the sister movie to the wrestler, and the wrestler is similar where it's about a man who's a wrestler, and Aronofsky has said that like wrestling is considered a low art and a masculine world, and it's about somebody performing this amount of masculinity under the high pressure of his industry, and that ballet is considered a very high art, and it's Nina having to perform the same sexuality but femininity and the same pressure.

So I do think it's interesting to examine how universal this kind of um oh, just like the uh high standards of any industry, and if you're not meeting them, then people aren't going to treat you well, even when you are meeting them, because Nina's the best of the best. So, what's up with her mom? Okay, yeah, I I didn't want to bring that up in case you had things going on later on for us to talk about, but the biggest question of this movie is the mom. Is the mom abusing her? Oh, well, I think that well, the thing is is that oh no, I don't think so. Um, but I do think that there is an interesting type of abuse going on here where the mom probably doesn't doesn't seem to realize what she's doing.

But when Nina has been so um like infantilized since she was a child, and now suddenly she's trying to like hyper speed become an adult, I do think that probably that's a big like the mom probably doesn't know what to do just as much as Nina doesn't know what to do. And yeah, she's not handling it well. I was talking to one of our college professors, Caroline, Dr. Jessica Zeller, and she was she was telling me about how when women are put into ballet when they're children and they're taught like to be air quotes empty vessels and to take in whatever they're being taught and to not have their own voice and to not be sexual because their body is art and not anything else.

Um, that when they become adults and their bodies then are sexual, then there's a big, you know, dissonance that they don't know how to handle it. And, you know, that's why you see obsessive ballerinas, is because suddenly that's all they know how to do. And I think that we're definitely seeing that with Nina, and I think that's why her sexual experience, separate from what's happening with Tomal, that's a whole different ball game. But sports and a ballet podcast. But um, you know, she throughout the movie is trying to masturbate and then being interrupted. And the big turning point of the movie when she can finally become the black swan is when she has that orgasm with she thinks me lacunous, but really it's herself.

And then, like snap of the finger next day, she is the black swan. She's wearing black at rehearsal, she's got kind of that viciousness in her eyes, and suddenly her performance is incredible. So I do think there is a very direct correlation between Nina's upbringing and her home life and her sexuality and her performance in this movie. I don't think that dance is necessarily this much about sex, but you know, that's the lens of the movie, and I think that that is a really strong, strong dot that it's connecting. I'm also uh so a few things that you me touched on. I think the like especially in the ball ballet world, the like you said, the infantilization, infantilization of women is just like prolonged even more because there's such this ideal body type in the industry of like small, fragile, flat-chested, like small hips, like all of that.

And I think one thing that they did really well with like the the set and design of this movie were particularly the stuffed animals in her room. And like I know so many professional ballet dancers that are still in that like all pink everything bose, like girly girliness, and I they just like nailed that so well. Um but okay, going back to the mom, we know that she had a dance career, yeah, and supposedly has that like stage mom pushiness, but also like wants the best for her daughter, and I think they did a really good job of showing that when they were when she was like, you can't go in, you're sick. Like she was willing to make that sacrifice when she knew that her daughter wouldn't make that decision.

But I'm really curious about the paintings that the mom does. Well, I think that the scene you just mentioned, you know, the mom is obsessed with Nina and obsessed with living vicariously through Nina. You know, she has she talks to the secretaries at the company to get all the dirt and all the gossip. And so, like, she's living vicariously through Nina, who is becoming more successful than she apparently was because iconic moment. What happened to my sweet girl, huh? She's gone. No, Grace, you're not well, like called me. I can't happen! I can't. I'm the swan queen. You're the one who never left the call. The mom was like, Oh, she's going to be the star that I always wanted to be.

And there I think is an element of sabotage that she doesn't want to see Nina be more successful than she was. So I think that there's a lot of complexity going on there. Her and that mom, they are always popping off with some hot lines. Mm-hmm. The cake scene also stood out to me. Yeah. Like, I love big ass cake for a ballet dancer. Like, and then the drama when she was like, fine, I'll just throw the whole thing in the trash. I'm like, that's a$200 cake. I know. She got like the craziest cake. I really wanted a piece of it. But the drawings, the drawings freaked me out. I don't know if they just added that to be like creepy or what.

It's obsession, Caroline. She's obsessed. But they're bad drawings. Well, you know, she had to pick up a hobby, and you know, that didn't seem to be the right one for her. Um, I also think that there is a disconnect in this movie between sex and confidence. And clearly, Tomas is undermining Nina's confidence by trying to make her more sexual. And I don't know. I think that if you're talking to a dancer, the black swan isn't a seductress, like they keep saying over and over again. She's confident, she's pulling her hand away from the prince because she's she's not there to seduce him, she's there to trick him. So I I do think that that is uh an element of them kind of sensationalizing and making this a more male perspective movie.

Have you ever seen Center Stage? Of course. Yes. I feel like that is just the non-suspense thriller version of this movie, and mainly because of all of the like dance tropes that are thrown in there. But again, the whole thing is the male director telling this prissy little ballerina that she has to be sexual in order to be a good performer, and there's like all this drama happening, cutthroat, and like to an extent that is true in the dance world, but we've come a long way, and people just like to hold on to those cliches. Yeah. Obviously, the movie could have overdone it with the relationship between him and her, but they didn't. And I thought that was interesting because I feel like it it wasn't and I could be wrong, but I don't think the movie was about the movie wasn't about that dynamic as much as it was about her self dynamic.

And so that's true. I feel like it could have been way more like uh like they could have easily overdone it with like that that and I'm glad they didn't. Well, and it's like constantly towing the line of like, I mean, obviously, sexual abuse is something that's prevalent in the dance world, um, where men are frequently at the top and women are trying to like fight to get get get their their spotlight. But I think what's interesting is Tomas is really calculated, and you know, there is never any like crazy like rip off the clothes scene because in Tomas' mind, like, I mean, he is abusing her probably and knows it, but like he is solely doing these things in the context of the performance, and that's what's gaslighting Nina, where there's that scene where Lily is like we're playing a little too rough for you.

Come on, Nina, he's a prick, he's brilliant. Like he is tricking her just as much by saying, I'm doing all these horrible things to you in the in the the name of art, for the sake of the art. And it he never crosses into an experience where he couldn't make that excuse. And I feel like in his mind, or at least what I feel like at least what I gather from the movie, I feel like he's genuinely doing it from a desire to have her, although it's not condoned or or good. I I don't think he's doing it to to get some from her as much as he is to to like better the performance. I think he knows he's a neither of which are condoned.

Yeah, I'm not saying he's not gross, I'm just saying No, I think he knows he is. I think he's I think he's being abusive for his own pleasure. Yeah, I think it is definitely a power trip, and then we see the end result of that with uh Beth, the old principal dancer, where she's just taken that mental abuse and like we see the trajectory. It starts out like the way it is with Nina, and then you end up in that terrible situation with Beth. Yeah, and I think that this movie, looking at Beth, has a lot of I think the the movie is obviously very accessible to people who aren't familiar with dance, and it's easily understandable for people who aren't familiar with dance, but I do think there are a lot of subtleties that are more easily opened up for people who are familiar with dance because in ballet we celebrate the elders.

Like the the older dancers are like icons and legends, and a lot of dancers do go on to dance for a long time. Like, you know, Natalie Portman's character says something about Margot Fontaine. Like, there are ballerinas that dance for a long time and are revered. But what's different here, it's not that Beth is old and gross and they don't want her to perform anymore. It's that Beth is not producing her best performance anymore and is mentally incapable of letting this thing go that's been her entire life. And like in real life, I am obsessed with Martha Graham. And when Martha Graham was unable to perform anymore, she really spiraled into like alcoholism and abusive behavior at her studio and in her company.

And so, like, there is an element of just eventually your body's not capable of what it used to be anymore, and that's a hard thing to let go of. But I don't think that they hate Beth because she's old, which is something that I think could be misinterpreted by people who aren't dancers. Yeah. Right. I also, okay, as much as Nina's character is like an archetype of this perfect prissy the little dancer, I think Lily is also an archetype of this like girl gone wild, but I'm also like a perfect ballerina type thing. We see that a lot in dance movies. Yeah, and I think the I mean, that's another type of real person. You know, cliches are cliches because they're so cliche.

Yeah, like that happens a lot because there are dancers like that who are kind of the opposite end of the spectrum who want to party and be wild because they're used to being so brought up in such a rigid structure. So, and I do want to talk briefly about the connections between the characters and the ballet Swan Lake. So if you're unfamiliar with Swan Lake, it's, you know, a princess. She is cursed by a sorcerer named Rothbard to be a swan by day and a woman at night. And a prince comes and sees her, falls in love with her. And if he professes his love to her, then the curse will be broken. But instead, at this big party where he has to announce his engagement, the sorcerer shows up with an evil creation, an evil twin of the princess, and he becomes engaged to her instead, so she'll be a swan forever.

So uh she decides instead to kill herself rather than live under the sorcerer's curse. And in some versions, the prince then kills himself as well, and they're reunited in heaven. And in some versions, he is just sad forever. I think that's what's really interesting is obviously Nina is the white swan. She's naive, she's innocent, um, whatever. You know, that's the obvious. But, you know, Lily is billed as the black swan in the credits, and you know, the whole thing, the movie is like, oh, will it be Nina? Will it be Lily? Like, who is the black swan? But what I love is that Nina is the black swan the whole time as well. She has the black swan inside of her, and she's been battling that throughout the whole movie, and it just manifests through her hallucinations of who she imagines Lily is, who she thinks is the perfect black swan.

I mean, this movie plays a lot with what's real and what's not, and I think that can be an exhausting thing in movies. But what's so great about Black Swan is that in the end it doesn't matter what was real and what wasn't. What was real is that Nina was imagining that she needed to become Lily to be the perfect Black Swan when really she had Black Swan in her the whole time. But at the end, almost like Carrie, she can't control that black swan because it's been so suppressed. And when it comes out in this big rage, you know, she can't control her power. I think that a character that's overlooked a lot in these correlations between Swan Lake and the movie is that Tomah, you know, he's billed as the gentleman in the credits.

What the hell does that mean? The gentleman? I don't think so. He, to me, is like Rothbart, the sorcerer to a T because he manipulates and tortures Nina throughout the whole movie. And he's trying to like metamorphose her into his idea of what a perfect woman should be. And what's interesting about Swan Lake is that Odile, the Black Swan, isn't a free woman. In his kind of opening speech to the company about black about Swan Lake, he says it's about the virginal girl, pure and sweet. She desires freedom. And his idea of freedom is the black swan, but the whole point of the ballet Swan Lake is that the Black Swan Odil is not free either.

She's under Rothbart's spell even more than Odette, the white swan, is. Odile can never break free of the swan because she's a creation of Rothbart. And so I I've been viewing Tomas as the evil sorcerer, and that he's created this monster, and that Nina is in the end exactly like the white swan. She has to kill herself to find the freedom that she wanted the whole time because she can't live under that spell anymore. That was beautiful, Parker. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, that's why the ending of this movie is so gorgeous. First of all, that song on the soundtrack, it's called Perfection. It's gorgeous, and it's got like the like the little harp, and then it's like bum bum bum bum bum bum bum.

It is so gorgeous. And just her saying, I felt it, it was perfect. I just the end of this movie absolutely oh, it is like a total face melter. It is so good, the end of this movie, perfection in every way. I agree. My Valentine's Day tie-in. In the end, she finds herself, she learns how to love herself. So there you go. That's my Valentine's Day thing. And also masturbating. Alas, let's figure out. You know, not a lot of murder happening here besides murdering oneself. So, what would you say is your most memorable moment from Black Swan? I I'm gonna say this part because it made me like double take or like question what was happening, but not to be cliche, but during the the lesbian girl and girl scene.

Oh learning things about she okay, so Milo Kunis looks up and for a moment It's Mila. Do I say it wrong every time? It's okay, it's okay. Yeah, it is Mila, but like just live your dreams, go off. Okay, well, Lily looks up for a second and it's not Lily's face. Oh yeah. And I it was so quick that I couldn't tell whose face it was. Ian thought it was her mom's face. I thought it was Nina for a second, which like the mom's face throws a whole other story. Yeah, I think it was Nina, but that would be yeah, that would be interesting. That would give the evidence for your sexual abuse thing, but no, I think it was Nina.

I think it was Nina. Yeah, well, I do too, but it was just it was quick, and I like sat there for a second afterwards thinking, like, oh, who was that? What does that mean? Like, what's happening here? And it's the first time that you're questioning how you're being present presented with what's actually happening. Um so that was a really interesting moment to me. Also, just like you liked the sex. You know, sex in a pink room with a bunch of teddy bears watching, what's not to like I I think along with that, this is not my favorite scene, but I would say like when the first when you first knew it's gonna be more than a ballet movie, is when the the face on the the pictures that the mom was painting like moved.

And I was like, oh, okay, we're here for something different. Yeah. So I thought that was interesting. I I know it was a weird, like a it shouldn't be the most memorable scene, but I really enjoyed the when the mom got the cake scene. I thought that was like just kind of an interesting dynamic, and I thought it was gonna go down the rabbit hole. I mean don't get me wrong, her mom was uh like crazy, in my opinion. But I thought it was gonna go down the rabbit hole of like more than it was. Yeah, and I still question that final scene where she's at the top of that rock, which in point shoes, running up that flat surface, no ma'am, that would be so hard.

But you know, she does her acting and then she makes eye contact with her mom who is like weeping. I'm not totally sure. I love that moment, but I'm not totally sure what it means. I mean, it could just be her mom knows, like, this is it, she's lost it. Like, there's no way she could be this good and sane. I don't know. But I do think that that's a powerful moment that I haven't exactly worked out. Um, so yeah, I do think the mom is important. I just, I am so ripped between so many things. Obviously, her bowing and the big wings sprouting out, incredible. Her on the bed at the end, even her falling onto the bed at the end, gorgeous.

I think I'm going to go with that moment I mentioned earlier where she gets off stage during the Black Swan Coda, she knows that she's nailing it, and she pulls the netting off her face and is like, mm-hmm, and like you see the like rash rippling across her chest. I think that is just an absolutely like oh my god, like incredible moment of cinema. Mm-hmm. Cinema. On a scary scale, one to five, how would you rate Black Swan? I would probably rate it a two. It's not it's not scary in the same tense of scary that we're used to, but it's scary in the psychological like self um self-intensities. Yeah. I think I would give it a three.

Um just because I mean, same reasoning, but I think the thought of like losing yourself in this kind of like art process is kind of scary, and it has happened in real life. Who is the guy that played the Joker? Yeah. Keith Ledger. Keith Ledger, yeah. Like this is something that like actually happens, and yes, it's dramatized in this way, but it is a real thing to lose yourself when you're in that process. Yeah, I would give it um a two like Ian, because I feel like when people say horror movie, Black Swan is not the first movie that comes into their brain. Uh, we didn't even talk about Winona Ryder stabbing herself in the face with that nail file.

But um, which I think would probably be like the most horrific horror moment. I mean, the most cliche horror moment would be when she turns on her kitchen light and there's like a bloody Beth standing in her kitchen. That was a little silly. But I think what makes it, I do think it has very traditional elements of a horror movie and it uses fear as a way to express its purpose. But what I think makes it less scary or less I would more readily recommend this to people who have a hard time with horror movie, is that every scary air quotes thing that happens has a purpose to the meaning and the theme of the movie.

And I think that that can make a horror movie more accessible when you can say, oh, here's a scary thing that happened. I can connect a dot to something that the movie's trying to say. It's not just scary for the sake of being scary. I think that that can make horror movies more easy for people who don't vibe with horror to watch and understand why you might be employing some of these tactics. I think that that is a cool thing about the movie, but also lessens the fear a little bit. But yeah, the psychological stuff go off. It's crazy. And just like you never know what's real, and that's kind of not like scary in a traditional sense, but makes you think it's scary afterwards.

Yeah. Now, would you give Black Swan a smash or a slash? I would give it a hard point shoe whacking smash. Ouch. I'd give it a into the back of the trash can, cake goodbye, smash. Oh, oh, yeah, indeed. You know, I am wiping this the um juice off my lips because I have smashed this movie so hard. I love Black Swan. So, what would you guys say is your favorite scary movie? New favorite scary movie time. Train rolling in the station. It's Black Swan. Is this gonna go across the board? Because I'm black swanning it. Oh, you guys. We are united as one. Mine is Black Swan. Is this the first time ever? Is this history or no?

Is this herstery? This could be her history, I'm not sure, but I think this is the first time that unanimously a movie has absolutely swept our hearts. Wow. Wow, what a blowout. I like you guys said, Caroline, I think Black Swan has been waiting years for somebody to give it the recognition that it deserved Academy Awards, Oscar Who? We did that. We gave it what it deserved. You're welcome. We finally made it to the top. We took the time, the energy. Alright. Well, we've reached perfection and we must fall onto the beds of our own death. Uh, gaping wound from our stomachs. You guys, it has been a pleasure. This episode has been just raucous fun.

Um, next week, Caroline and Ian will be gone. Julianne will be joining me once again, where we will be discussing the black coat's daughter, which you can stream on Netflix. Until then, feel free to dance your way over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review. Don't let him grow him. I'm doing my swan arms, and my cat just came and jumped over my arm. Well, don't tempt him. My name is Parker Heron. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, and Letterboxd at Parker Del Ray. My name is Caroline. You can find me on Instagram at Caro Manifesto. My name is Ian. You can find me on Caroline's Instagram sometimes. And if you want to find all three of us, you can find what's your favorite scary movie on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

At Scarymovie Pod, you can find even more of us chatting about hot movies at patreon.com slash scary moviepod. You can head to our website at scarymoviepod.com and send us an email with any feedback that you desire at well, nice feedback, of course, at scary moviepod at gmail dot com. All right, you guys. Bye-bye now. Bum bum bum.