The Witch

In the early 17th century, religious families from Europe, coined Puritans by their critics, migrated to the New World. What is now Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Maine became a refuge for these devout Christians seeking a new start apart from the polluted Church of England. Puritan settlements, including Plymouth and later Massachusetts Bay, were founded on an anti-clerical, non-ritualistic, i.e., non-Catholic, way of Christian living. The strictness of life in these settlements led to communal turmoil and hysteria, resulting in the New England Witch trials. By the beginning of the 18th century, Puritanism began to decline, but reverberations of spiritual extremism have affected American history since. Divisive within the horror community, Robert Aggers's debut film was inspired by these places, events, and the colonial way of life.

A cold and creepy look at religion, suppression, and feminine power, The Witch is a bone-chilling modern masterpiece. I'm Caroline, Scaredy Scream Queen. I'm Ian, Scary Movie Skeptic. And welcome to. Spoilers ahead, so plan your movie screening every weekend before the episode release. Hey, quick question. Wouldst thou like to live deliciously? This is why I hated Shakespeare in high school. As you might have guessed, we are talking 2015's The Witch. The Witch premiered at the 2015 Sundance Film Festival, where it won the award for Best Director for writer-director Robert Eggers. This was his feature debut, his second film that he wrote and directed, uh, The Lighthouse, came out this past October. Thou star of thy movie. Anya Taylor Joy plays Thomason.

A lovely, unique name, I might add, that I noticed. Thomason? Thomason. Anya was in Split from 2016, and Morgan also in 2016. She was in the upcoming adaptation of Emma. That's exciting. Yeah. I actually um if you thought horror was my, you know, genre of choice, surprise, it might actually be a colorful period comedy. So I'm pretty excited for Emma. Oh, I have a baby meaning for uh name meaning for Thomason. Hmm. It means twin. I don't think that relates to anything. Uh but keep listening because you never know it might come up again. Um twin or double. I mean, she's living a bit of a double life. Witch or Christian. No, I'm not buying it.

Kate Dickey plays the role of Catherine. She was in Prometheus in 2012, and also some episodes of Game of Thrones. Thrones. Ralph Inison plays the role of William. He was in minor roles in a lot of big stuff, including Star Wars, Guardians of the Galaxy, Harry Potter. He was in Ready Player One in 2018, and also in the episodes of Game of Thrones, these people just really stick to what they know. Do you know how to say thrones? Apparently not. Thrones. Um well, I believe Robert Eggers said that he wanted to cast in Europe so that the um accent would be authentic. It was authentic. The Essex accent that he wanted. And I'm assuming Game of Thrones also casts from Europe.

All right. I had halfway through the movie, we had to turn on subtitles because I had no idea what they were saying. Halfway is like 10 minutes in. Yeah, well, it felt like I had already missed a whole lot. So um Daniel Malik is Black Philip and Bethesba Garnet. Bathsheba. Bathsheba, Bethesba. And two people with the role of the witch, Bathsheba Garnett and Sarah Stevens. Why two? One young, one old. Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot. The young one, beautiful. Oh, she was gorgeous. Very slim role there, but made an impact. Oh my god. Uh, I'm reminded of something that I said last week, and I'd like to bring it up again. Caroline, you're trash. The IMDB summary reads quote A family in the 1630s, New England, is torn apart by the forces of witchcraft, black magic, and possession.

The Rotten Tomatoes critic score is 90%, and the audience score a 58%. The critic's consensus is, quote, as thought-provoking as it is visually compelling, the witch delivers a deeply unsettling exercise in slow-building horror that suggests great things for debuting writer-director Robert Eggers? Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. Eggers. You know what I put in those gones tonight? Eggers. Oh my god. Four Eggers. I feel like over the past few weeks we've been starting by kind of breaking down what we read in this Rotten Tomatoes critics consensus. But I have a thought about the scores here. So as we saw, a large divide between the critic score 90 and the audience score 58. That is 8% away from rotten.

So I recall this movie, you know, premiered in 2015, but was in theaters at the beginning of 2016. I was on spring break in Austin with some friends, and we decided to go see The Witch in theaters because all of the advertising and um marketing had said this is the scariest movie you've ever seen. And so what I think happened is people went to this movie expecting a more traditional way of being scared. Having been told this is the scariest movie you've ever seen. And I remember sitting in the theater and this audience was not having The Witch. They would not chill, they would like boo things, and they would laugh whenever the dad would give speeches, and I've never been in such a like restless audience.

And I actually, after I left, I thought about this movie for a long time. I had dreams about this movie, and I was like, you know, maybe I would not have okayed the phrase like scariest movie ever about this movie, which not a direct not a direct quote, but that was the gist of the marketing was that this is a new type of horror that's the scariest thing you've ever seen. And I think that we've seen a lot of downfalls and marketing for some of these movies. We've had some pleasures, like Hereditary, where the trailers made it seem like this was a movie about the daughter, and then the daughter has her head knocked off, spoiler, in the first like 20 minutes, and my jaw was on the floor for that movie.

It was incredible. I think people need to be a little smarter about how they're selling their movies. Yeah. Remember when we went and saw Ma? And it was like, well, I saw the same movie, but in a two-minute short film form in that trailer. Yeah. I mean, did you think it was incredible when you got done, or was it ruined by people around you? It was a tough experience trying to get past what was happening around me, but I did really enjoy it. And actually, I think this is like the fourth time I've seen this movie. I I revisit every once in a while, and especially now it's on Netflix, so it's easy to put on.

Out of curiosity, do you remember if they had subtitles? They sure didn't. And it's kind of funny because I mean, there are small little details that us watching it with subtitles this time, I was like, oh, interesting. Like just a word here or there. But uh I I personally have not struggled as much to understand it as y'all did. The only I mean, I was like getting along okay, but once they really started getting into it, I was like, I'm gonna miss stuff if I don't understand what's happening here. I mean, I'm not one for subtitles. We know this. Even do we? Your favorite movie for the whole first season was a subtitled movie. That's different when it's like an actual different language than subtitles, obviously important.

But I'm not one to just throw subtitles on typically. So it took a lot for me to actually need subtitles. Yeah, I also think the subtitles were a little frustrating because I kept feeling like they were distracting from the visual punch of this movie. I think it's really gorgeous, and sometimes uh just having the subtitles taking up such a large chunk of the screen, I was like, ugh, well, that's taking away from it. Do I need to hear every time birds are chirping? Yeah, that's kind of that yeah, whatever. That's a different topic, but I had a hard time understanding them. They should have subtitles for words. The hearing impaired, and then subtitles for the people that just need to know the accent so that you don't see like the birds are chirping things.

Yes. When they really started going fast, though, I couldn't even read the subtitles fast enough. There was one line that like seemed to be really important, and I missed the whole thing. Well, to y'all's credit, also, it did rain today, and the cars driving past outside are a little noisy. Okay, maybe we're gonna blame it on that. Yeah, so sometimes it was just hard. Sometimes it would whisper a line and I couldn't necessarily I was like, what? Speak up. If you would like to donate to our Patreon, we can get a sound bar and then we won't have to talk about the subtitles anymore. Well, so a bit of a divisive movie as we've seen from Rotten Tomatoes.

What would you say you're thinking, brewing in your brain, which is brew, about this movie? It was one that like I didn't really have any idea going into it what it was about, other than like Puritans. Yeah, I've been sitting around the apartment all week reading about like colonizers, yeah. Uh uh conveniently enough, right after Thanksgiving. So Yeah, exact very Thanksgiving. Um also I just finished reading a handmaid's tale. Congrat But isn't Handmaid's Tale future? It is, but similarities in how these behaviors were happening here. But yeah, I didn't really know much about it and didn't know where it was going or where we were gonna end up and what a journey. Still kind of don't know.

But you know, I Parker kept telling me that I that he thinks that I'm I may enjoy this movie. I'm curious to learn why, because I'm not quite sure I at one angle, but I will also say that it was completely different than what I thought it would be. Well, I had a few reasons for thinking you'd like it. I knew that the dialogue might be a blow to your enjoyment, but I thought it's a very lovely movie to look at. I think you enjoy that. It's very glossy. Last week you were asking for witches, you got 'em. And you like cults, and as we've said before, what is the most widespread cult of all? Scient uh uh Christianity.

Just religion. Religion. Yeah, so I mean cultish in a sense, and uh you both are drawn to more supernatural things. So I thought this was checking a lot of boxes. I I could have done with more wit witchcraft. Yeah. You know? I think the thing I think I was thinking the same thing, but I also was cognizant of like I think they did a good job in the sense that witchcraft isn't necessarily all the you know all that was going on there. Well, that and like what we think of witchcraft is not probably what witchcraft is. It's more subdued than all these glamour like potions and yeah, but at the same time, so this movie is called The Witch, a New England folk tale.

And what I like about it is I've done a lot of reading and in multiple interviews, Robert Eggers always says, uh, speaks to the crazy amount of research that they did to create this movie. Um, basically, this movie took about four years to make, and most of those four years were them researching uh, you know, colonial New England and the um lore around witches, and like you saw in the in credits, it says that a lot of the dialogue was inspired directly by writing from the time, and so he did a ton of research. They built all of that set, which I mean it's not huge, but like it's impressive that they apparently they built it all in the way that it would have been built in the 1630s, and so a lot of detail went into this.

They worked with experts and with museums. Something that I thought was interesting was that Robert Eggers said, I think I have a direct source here. So, in an interview on bfi.org.uk by Anton Battel, Voices of the Undead, Robert Eggers on the Witch, Robert Eggers said, metaphysical truths are complicated because we don't think witches fly on broomsticks today. It's that's not true, it's bullshit. Science can prove that's not happening. But in the 17th century, that was true. I know this sounds a little wack-a-doodle, he says, but I think that things can exist in the society that believes in them. So he was approaching the witch purely from the stance of these people believe in witches. So I think the witch that we're seeing in The Witch is kind of the brewing potions and riding broomsticks, that type of witch, because he wanted to create an old-fashioned uh fairy tale based on the beliefs of the time.

So I do think what we were seeing was very authentic. I think the reason why we don't get more witch is because there's also this sense of ambiguity that he has in this movie about is it actually the witch that's doing this? Is the witch even real, or is it this family totally just collapsing? Um, I've read theories online that the witch doesn't exist, it's all in Thomason's head, and she's doing these things. And so I think you can debate this movie in a lot of different directions, but if there was more witch, especially more witch interacting with the family directly, then I think that would kind of lose its sense of mystery. I d I understand the whole like they wanted to like represent what the witch was in folklore.

I just throwing it out there. I think it would have been interesting if we never actually saw like Black Philip or like any of that like actually like come to fruition, and it was just like at the end, Thomason like wandered into the woods. Oh, totally disagree. Because I think something else that I love about this movie is that the entire time they're arguing about is it the witch? Did the witch take uh Samuel or was it the wolves? Is Thomason a witch? And in the end, actually, if the witch was real, she wasn't really doing that much besides that she took Samuel. It's really Black Philip who's been antagonizing the family from within. It's not about the witch, the hysteria that the family's focused on.

It's about Satan. It's about the thing that they fear, the devil. They think they're so pious, but it's about the devil creeping in and taking them from the angles that they least expect it. Because they they never really believe that black Philip is Black Philip until the end. You know what I'm saying? So I think the witch is a really interesting um kind of red herring when really the main threat had been with the family the whole time. And Black Philip finally manifesting in his true form at the end, I think is a powerful reveal of how it wasn't they needed to look within instead of outside. The guy that comes to fruition at the end is the devil.

Yeah. Yes, because he asked her to write her name in his book, which is a devil thing. See, I'm not privy to that's how witches are kind of or people are drawn into the fold of Satan as they sign his book. I thought it was gonna be a perspective from the witch. Which could we say that Thomason is the titular witch? I don't know, can we? I think we could. So regardless. So maybe we were seeing it from the perspective of. Maybe, but I didn't feel that way during watching it. So yeah, uh interesting movie. Definitely tickles the cinematic eyelids. Okay. So the movie kind of picks up and I think really establishes all the characters quickly.

Uh, the family has been excommunicated from their Puritan settlement. I have a definition of Puritanism if you would like it. Yes. Puritanism is a Protestant sect of Christianity known for believing in the purism of worship and doctrine. So they want to worship God in the most pure way possible, taking the Bible very literally, specifically the Old Testament. They sought religious freedom in America. That's why they were flocking to America in colonial times from more progressive, uh seeking to leave more progressive Roman Catholic practices that they thought were polluting Christianity. So when they're like on quote unquote trial or like that's them leaving actually Catholicism? No, that is them being kicked out of their Puritan community because it's never expressly said what they did, but they do cite for William prideful conceit.

His fault is vanity. I don't know what he did, but at the beginning, he like snaps back at them saying, like, you're the fake Christians, I will not be judged by you. I'd rather leave this community all together, and they're like, Fine, bro, you suck. So for the record, the family and also the group in which they're leaving are both Puritans. Yes, and that's they're leaving because he did something against Yes. You know how Thomason and William have this confrontation at the end where she keeps pointing out his hypocrisies, and that's where this all begins is they're Puritans, but they think that they are above their Puritan community and that they have some sort of holier uh lifestyle than the rest of them.

And so that's I think where the corruption begins. And William is so focused on this, uh Holy life that it's to the detriment of everything around them, and they can't actually function as a self-sufficient family because of this. So they build a new house and Samuel is taken. And this is probably, I think, saying it early, my favorite scene of the movie is Samuel's little uh rendezvous with our first look at the witch. And she uh mashes him up and lathers up. Does she mash the total of the baby up or just his baby wiener? Okay. Uh there was no, I think, focus on the wiener. She puts the knife against his chest. She just gives it a little tug.

Oh, I thought I thought she was whole like it was a gross scene. I thought she was like holding. No, she kind of like brushes down the front of his body and then puts the knife against his chest. I think she's just holding him down. Uh, and then that goes straight into her mashing up something bloody. And I would assume that she chops him up into pieces, mashes him up, and then slathers up, lotions up in some baby juice. Lays in the moonlight. Yes. And actually, I don't have a good answer for you on why she does this. I've seen a lot of people saying that's why she looks young later, is because she slathered up in that.

I was watching a video from Ryan Hollinger on YouTube called The Witch Explained. And he says, and I could not find anything else on the internet, but he says that the baby was used to allow her to fly because immediately afterwards we see her in the form of a crow. And I think that could make sense because at the end of the movie, uh, we don't see the twins taken, but we know that they just were, and we see the witches around the fire. Some of them I was really looking, looked like they had blood on them, and then they all start flying. So perhaps a little pixie dust. Yeah, perhaps some baby guts uh grant them flight.

I don't know. Cause she also does, the witch does also rub it on some sort of stick or pole, and that could be her flying broom, yes. Hello. It is your hosts from the editing room. Hello. Hey. We received such a thoughtful message from Alyssa on Facebook. She wrote in and said, Hey guys, super excited about your upcoming episode on The Witch. Uh, my favorite horror film, love the dark essence and presence the movie depicts throughout the entire film, leaving you uneasy and triumphant at the same time. Yada yada yada. She pointed out here something that I thought was very curious that we were just having a bit of a debate about in the episode. She says, After the witch kidnaps Samuel while Thomason is watching him, she, the witch, uses the baby to make a flying potion.

The flying potion calls for the rendered fat of a newborn babe, as well as added herbs and ingredients. You then see that she is muddling the blood bloody fat of the babe and other things together to create her potion. Oh, huh. Wow. Next we see she's rubbing the mixture on herself as well as her broom to give it flying abilities. A lot of people think she turns into a crow and flies, but that is incorrect. Well, that's yeah, that is interesting. I just love hearing the thoughts and opinions of our listeners. And if you ever have any thoughts about an upcoming episode, definitely write in and tell us, because we'd love to include more of your stuff in the episode.

Thanks for that message, Alyssa. Back to the episode. Do you think that the rabbit is Black Philip, or do you think the rabbit is a witch? I think it's one of the witches. I think it could be either. I think that's another thing we can't answer. We see witches taking the form of animals, but also we know Satan is taking the form of Black Philip. So I think it's more of the forest. The woods are a whole additional presence to be worried about. We have all this corruption in the forest, corruption in Black Philip. I think they're just in a bad spot. You know, that shadow after the baby lathering scene. I didn't realize it was a crow.

But it makes sense. The crow comes back and pecks at some areolas. Yeah, so the baby's back for milk. Mm-hmm. Oh. A few other things that I really love in this movie. The first would be this conversation that um William and uh Caleb have in the forest, where he's asking about if Samuel was a sinner and if he thinks Samuel is in hell at this point because he was a baby. And I think this is another spot where the restrictions of their religion are really tying them to I can't I think of the word the opposite. I was going to say the opposite of joy, but I can't think of like their gloomy, horrible life is yeah, the result of this like restrictive limitations they've put on themselves.

I think that's one thing. Another thing is it's later revealed by Catherine that Samuel was never baptized, and so Catherine is like, he's definitely in hell. And where that's really interesting is that Samuel couldn't be baptized because William was excommunicated and they can't baptize a baby that's not part of their church. So that's another element that's weighing on William's vanity, his main sin or conceit that is um weighing him down and the reason he was kicked out, you know? So I love that conversation. I I also noticed throughout the movie, even when the mom wasn't talking about Samuel, is there something about like if you can't go to confession and like have yourself like cleansed of your sin, then you're like not well off.

Uh I don't know if you have to go to like a church, but maybe there has to be intention in it, because I would assume that they wouldn't live there if they couldn't be rid of their sins. Because Caleb was saying, like, I haven't gone to confession, and like throughout the movie, like Kate is constantly saying, like, we're all damned, and like Yeah, I I do not have the answer to that. I don't know that much about Puritanism. And this is also where we get the first little snips of this silver cup controversy. Yeah, what's the deal with that? The dad sold the cup to buy the traps that he was using to hunt because he was saying they would not only get meat, but then they could sell the pelts and um, you know, make a little money, but he doesn't want to tell Catherine because he's scared of her, and he is being all you know, prideful.

She's pretty scary. She's a little scary. I think when her hair is down at the end, she looks kind of pretty. Are they not supposed to eat meat? I think they don't eat meat because the dad can't hunt. What a man. Yeah, they eat meat and just don't think they can find it. Yeah, well, the other thing is we continuously see William chopping wood, and that's because he's trying to live under this masquerade of I am this masculine head of the family, like the Bible teaches, but he's failing on every front. And what does it look like he's good at? Chopping wood. I actually had the thought during the movie, like, oh, maybe that was his job in the community, so that's the only thing he knows how to do.

But when he's not functioning within a community, chopping wood doesn't do much good. Yeah, maybe so. And you see, they have an obscene amount of wood stacked up by their house, and you know what that wood does? It crushes him and kills him at the end. That's what happens, William, you little bitch. I love this continual build and discussion about the downfall of the family. You know, it starts out as little things, and slowly they grow to resent each other more and more. And something that I think is actually really sad is how much Thomason is actually the one in the family that seems to love her life, and everybody else is so horrible, and she just wants her mom to love her, and she doesn't want to be sent away from her family, and everybody else seems miserable.

So that's something that I love about this movie is just that slow build of tension and just piecing together that puzzle of dissension within them. Yeah. Can we talk a minute about Thomason and Caleb? Caleb Caleb and the The Boob looks. Yeah. Can we talk about that? Well, I think that's really interesting because yeah, he steals some glances at her titolones. And you know what? They're not too bad either. Small, but mighty. Um a little pale. I think it was just to show that like both of them were like coming into adulthood. Don't think there was any like sexual energy there, but one, it showed us that like Thomason was ready to be sent away, quote unquote.

Did you hear Caleb moan later? There's definitely sexual lineages. I think, yes, Thomason is becoming a woman. And but also she can't control that. But I do think Caleb is, you know, displaying some manly desires, and they live in this community, this uh little house where um It's the only thing he can look at. He doesn't, yeah, he doesn't have any other options, and it's not like he's getting any alone time to take care of business, if you know what I mean. And um I would like for us to put some critical thought into what happens when he is lost and encounters the witch. Well, that's what I was thinking, because he does he's still a young boy, but the only way that we know that he's of an age where like he would be drawn into this like siren witch is those glances that he displayed.

Mm-hmm. And I mean, it's no it's no accident that when he encounters the witch, she's not the scary old hag that we see, but she is this very voluntuous, bodacious woman. I mean, if he likes looking at cleavage, feast your eyes. Because uh she's got it. And she kisses him on the mouth, which I think is a little jarring to see because he is a young child and she is an adult woman, but I think that it's all yeah and she's enticing him with his his main fault, his character. It reminded me of the shining when the old Wrinkly woman makes out with and actually in in an interview with Vice News, Robert Eggers said that he's a little bit ashamed that he says this film smells like the shining, is what he said.

He said it is just dripping references to the shining, because that was a huge influence for him. He said he also loves Psycho, but um I don't I don't get the vibe that he's super into horror movies. Well, I it kind of has that like going mad in your alone time or like solidarity kind of thing, which I thought about during the movie. Well, also it's interesting to see that and then um see the previous bowl. The trailer for the lighthouse, yeah. Seems like there's a lot of like I like isolation to these movies. Yeah, exactly. And I also think it's interesting, um, both of them involve the kind of like you said earlier, siren character.

Here we have the witch, and there there might just be some mermaids. And so it seems like um Robert Eggers kind of has a thing. Um, can we talk about Caleb's death? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what do you want to say? Uh interesting. That apple coming up. Also, okay, um, is the bleeding into a bowl are they trying to like rid him of bad things? I Googled that and I I can't remember what it was called. I did not Google it on there. Um, but yeah, I believe that's some sort of pressure relief method. Sounds. Yeah, I don't believe that there was any sort of ritual to it. I think they were just trying to do something.

I don't really have the answers on that. Um, yeah, a little bit of a strange thing to do. There are a few similarities noted in that YouTube video I mentioned earlier about this movie and the Adam and Eve story about them being cast out of their Eden and then falling to sin. Some general things like that. But the main thing that I uh was latching on to in it was the idea that Caleb what's the past tense of succumb? Succumbed? Succame? I don't know. Well, he's succonced. He succumbed to his lust, and that was symbolized by him choking up this apple with a bite taken out because what was the apple representative of in the garden?

Eve. Well, yes, Eve, but also um indulgence and um getting naked. Yeah, yeah, and he's naked when they find him. The the whole story is all about giving in to sin. And so can I dunno, I'm kind of thinking, what if they did it? Him and the witch. Probably. And wow, coming back to Caleb's conversation of like wanting apples so much. And Thomason said the same thing. Yeah. They wanted that apple, they wanted the apple, the goods that they had in Europe. Robert Eggers also noted this way of talking about Jesus or God in the time period that this was set in a way that seemed very sexual. And that's something that he said he purposefully wanted to hit on in this scene was this strange relationship between worshiper and worshipped, you know, almost romantic power that he holds over them.

Because you'll also note that Catherine is talking to William, and she says, basically, she'll never be able to love him as much as this dream that she has about her and Jesus walking together. And she said she'll never be able to experience this same level of love and affection that she had for him with William. And uh, you know, that's probably not something that William was super excited to hear. So, I mean, that just plays into that scene with Caleb having this like orgasmic death and kind of possession. You know, women staying pure for so long before marriage that sometimes a lot of women have a hard time after they're married with their husbands, still feeling guilty and kind of going back to Catherine's conversation of like not providing for William.

Or maybe he's not providing for her, if you know what I mean. Yeah, well, stressful situation. Anyways, the twins, I guess like in Caleb's death scene, there's like a lot of back and forth blame to the point where like even I didn't know what was happening with them when they like just fell into shock and like were controlled. So they kind of just disappear in the final scene, which is why I wanted to touch on this now. Any answers there? On which part? Them in the the possession scene, yeah. That and like also like were they, you know, taken by the witches? Were they like sold their souls to Black Philip? Did they Yeah, in the um possession scene, I also I don't know if they were actually being controlled by the same force that was controlling Caleb, or if they were just trying to get Thomason in trouble.

Uh, I think that children not doing things that they don't understand the consequences of is a scary concept to me. And so I've always enjoyed that scene because it's like if they're just being little shits, they don't realize that they're actually like ruining Thomason. Right. And um I yeah, I don't have any answers, but I I like that idea. Children, you know, children have a strange power because people automatically want to trust children, and children have, you know, innocence in talking, you know, in terms of black Philip, they would also probably probably be cleaner slates for him to um work his ways on because they're not corrupted by the same thoughts and trained opinions as the other family members.

So, I mean, Thomason says that they're always whispering with Black Philip, so maybe they were kind of being uh working under his control. Who knows? Uh at the end, I do think that the witch took them. Oh, that's right, because you said they were flying right afterwards, so that would support your baby blood. Um, but I think why else would the witch have broken into the barn there besides just get a good sip of goat's milk? I think she was looking for some babes to take away with her. I think I just love the witch because that's my other favorite part, is when she turns around and she's like, I think that's so good. Um, yeah, so climactic night.

I actually was more taken by the scene with Catherine and Caleb and Samuel and the Crow than I have been in the past. And it's because I, and this was a result of subtitles, I caught something that I had not previously caught. You're welcome. Uh yeah, thanks. Caleb says to her, uh, I have brought you a book. Will you look at it? And I wonder if Satan, Black Philip, was targeting Catherine first, saying, uh offering her the chance to sign the book because he's doing the same thing for her that he ultimately does for Thomason, where he offers Catherine things that she really wants more than anything. She's offering her her children back, and I think that that, you know, could have the power to entice her into signing the book.

And I don't know what comes of it. You know, maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but you know, she doesn't last that much longer, so there's no way for us to tell. I thought of that, but I don't think she would have been accusing Thomason of being a witch if she had signed that night. But she's not really acc the next morning, she's not accusing her really anymore of being a witch. She accuses her of being a seductress and of corrupting the family. And, you know, maybe she's speaking out of shame. I don't know. I think that her tune changes just enough the next day that I could see it going either way. But I was really uh taken by that that interaction in a way I hadn't been before because I was like, oh my god, you know, it's not just Thomason.

Thomason's just the hero of our movie, so we're seeing Thomason's interaction more explicitly, but they're all being taken in the same way. It's just a little too late for Catherine. Uh, and then we get that great scene of her having her boob pecked. Yeah, do you see the blood? Yeah, the next morning she is dripping. Oh, I didn't notice that. Yeah, he gets out of bed and her eyes like, uh, and then she's got a bloody boob. Yeah. Yeah, and then we discussed William's death. He kind of uh concedes to his vanity, he even says, corrupt. Thou art my father, and he I guess just submits to his sins and dies. So ticket to hell. We have the barn busted open, the twins gone, and the two and the goats are dead.

Well, yeah, gutted. Yeah. As was the dog earlier. Earlier, yeah. Something's a happening. Yeah, and a pretty convenient thing that Thomason is left unscathed. And that's exactly what William was thinking. He's like, oh man. You know, spawn of Satan, whatever. You're a witch. Yeah, so parents are dead. I think that the death of Catherine's very heartbreaking because she keeps saying, I love you, I love you, I love you. But she knows if she's gonna get out of this pickle, she's gotta do what she's gotta do. Slashes her across the face a couple times, gets her gone. And then the best part of the whole movie, she comes face to face with old Black Philip, and he asks, Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?

And what a good freaking line. You can go buy little Funko Pop figurines of Black Philip. Uh, people are into Black Philip. He's a pretty cool cat. Yeah, and she is freed of this lifestyle that she's been forced into. And she has her moment of joy, her catharsis at the end, a la Danny in Midsummer. She is set free of the conventions she was born into, and she looks ready to live deliciously, if I do say so myself. Also, did you guys notice that the soundtracks were kind of similar to Midsummer? I did. That lar blaring, loud buildup. Some similarities. I like the singing in this one. It's very witchy. In an interview with the film stage called The Witch director Robert Eggers on the history of witchcraft and his cinematic influences, uh, Robert Eggers said, I want to say that I wasn't intending to make a feminist film.

Thanks a lot, Robert. I wanted to make an accurate portrayal of witches in the 17th century, and feminism couldn't be ignored. It just burst off the page. So it happened. That's what I ended up making. And I kind of like this idea because this movie is so steeped in its time that was so fraught for women that, you know, sometimes, like we discussed in Carrie, made by men, made by men whose other works sometimes have problematic views of women, somehow all the cards came together, the stars aligned, and something feminist and incredible resulted. And so I like this idea that he's like, hey, I'm a man. You know, men can be feminist, but at the same time, you know, he can't speak to the feminine experience.

But what he can speak to is this immense amount of research and knowledge that he's developed around this time period, which resulted in something feminist. And I think that's pretty cool. Last week y'all were asking me about the Salem witch trials. And so the Salem Witch Trials didn't begin until 1692, which is about 60 years after this movie. But I was um reading on a history article online, history.com, about how this puritanical obsession with religion is what ultimately ended up spawning the mass witch trials. Because it wasn't just in Salem, Salem is just the big one. So the trial the witch trials didn't begin for a little bit longer, but it was all founded on the tenets of this Puritan paranoia.

Uh, women who expressed any sort of autonomy or outspokenness were the ones accused of being witches because they countered conventional thought on what a woman's place was. And what you were saying earlier about how, you know, they're being forced into, you know, waiting maybe for marriage, if we're talking about sex, or forced into submissive roles to their husbands, things like that. If they don't want that for their lives and they speak out about it, it was just the norm to be like they must be a witch because they countering popular thought. And I think it's interesting because this is all from a Christian standpoint. Witches are part of, you know, New England or Christian lore. We're not seeing maybe the seductress counterpart of a different national mythology.

I think witches are very European-American. And so I think it makes sense that it's a witch here. And clearly, Thomason, as much as she loves her family, she doesn't seem suited to the role that she's been assigned in life. And so her journey into I don't want to say desire because that sounds negative in the context, but into living deliciously is the story, you know? Yeah. I think here we have to, you know, if you're a Christian, don't be offended because I think that it's incidental. The story here is about oppression versus freedom. And here, witchcraft and Satan represent that freedom because it counters the strict structure of their culture. There are two other things that I want to read to you from this BFI interview with Robert Eggers about feminism.

Uh, one was from the author of this article, Anton Vittel, who says the witch conjures The Witch conjures through the echoes of history a ghostly image of America today where ideological extremisms can still engender their own alternative reality. I think that I wanted to quote it directly because I think that's a pretty powerful statement right there. Um an example of the richness that can be drawn from a movie such as this. Horror is cool. Uh, and then in the same interview, Robert Eggers said, I think that the thing that is speaking the most for me is how the shadows of the past and the repression of feminine power and the fear of feminine power and the dark feminine in the male-dominated society in early modern period, how even though that is a thing of the past, those shadows still exist today.

I kind of agree that a story so rooted literally in the past is still it feel I think it feels like a very modern movie. And just like we talked about with Hereditary, it feels a little dangerous and a little spooky, just the kind of aura that the movie has. It radiates the darkness. That's what really scares me in movies, is when it's kind of one of those things where you take the DVD out and you want to like go drop it outside the door so it can't get you. Netflix is always with us. Yeah, exactly. Can't escape. I think this season is really like kind of blowing my mind with the idea of these like psychological.

I think this is kind of a psychological thriller. For sure. But this idea that like the world itself is pretty scary when you let it manifest in your mind. So And culture. Yeah. I think the physical world and the cultural world that we live in. Yeah. And I think drawing this back to the shining, I mean, we get like little bits and pieces of the feminine role as well. Ughy Wendy. Wendy. Yeah. But I kept comparing those two in my mind while watching this about how one isolation to like just your daily life repetition and and isolation can kind of you know get in your mind and cause really scary things. Yeah, they're they may be an open space di in contrast to the shining, but they're just as isolated and confined to their means there, especially after they lose that horse.

Yeah. Stupid Caleb. Mental health, it's important, guys. Yeah, and also not letting yourself be confined by one, the people, the thoughts of the people around you, peer pressure, and also being a free thinker and finding out what you believe yourself. You know, it's easy to believe what your parents believe, but do you ever question and find your own answers? Not if people are gonna call me a witch. Oh, you'd be so lucky. Going off of this movie alone, I'd love to be a witch. I'd love the taste of butter. And y'all like to travel the world. Yeah. We're just a couple of witches. Living deliciously. Oh, hell yeah. Alright. I think that's a great note to wrap it up on.

Uh, what would you say from The Witch is your most memorable murder? They may be a little more subdued, but they're there. I'm gonna go with Caleb. Oh. I don't know what he says. I was gonna yell out something. Thou stole is thy something. Jesus, I love you. I think William. Ooh. Yeah. Corruption. Satan driving his horns into thou belly. Uh, and three-way draw, because I'm gonna go with Samuel. Oh. Just mashed up into a little witch still. Butter. Delicious. Oh yeah, throw a little of that in there. That's how it went on to her body like butter. Uh, on a scary scale, one to five. How would you rank the witch? Four. Wow. Any thoughts on that?

Basically, what I just said about the world getting in your brain, driving you crazy. Yeah, Ian? Uh, like a two. Not that scary to me. I'm gonna give it a four as well. I don't wanna give it a five. Uh I I don't know if I have seen in modern in recent years a five. Um, but I'll give it a four just because I think it's one that maybe I'm not covering my eyes for, even though y'all had some jumps at the end with Black Philip to, you know, thrashing into people. I do think it's scary. I like I said, I had dreams about this movie after I saw it, and that's the kind of movie I'm looking forward.

It'll creep into my brain holes. And also, just looking at the kind of slate of movies coming up soon. Um well, no, I don't want to be negative on anything. I'm just going to say that I think it's been a while since I've seen just an original, just really horrific experience. I feel like I haven't had that in a while in the theaters. So I'm hoping 2020 has got our backs. I'm hoping to see some scary stuff. So would you give this movie a smash or a slash? I would give it a smash. It's not like a long-term smash, but I would also give it a smash. But not really for the scary part. Just a good movie.

It's a good movie. Yeah. I'm gonna give it a smash, and it's a long-term smash. Like I said, I've seen this four-ish times, and uh yeah, it's one of those smashes where you put your hands in there and you're like, woo! Mine's more of like a cuffing season only smash. Oh, it is a nice wintertime movie. And then like kind of I would move on after a while. Yeah. I also just uh I feel like sometimes I watch a movie, and because I am not educated in the ways of film, I sometimes am like, oh, like this is cool, but I have to kind of sit and brew with like, which is brew? Like, was that like the job of the director or the cinematographer?

Was this just editing? You know, sometimes I I'm a little like have to piece the puzzle together on who did what, but I think in this movie in particular, it's very clear that Robert Eggers like took a big role in his directing and was done really masterfully. Yes, the shots were gorgeous, so like, and the you know he also wrote the script and the editing was done well. There were so many things that were done masterfully, but I think you can really tell that this was his artistic vision, and you can see that, you know, splattered into the whole work. Agreed. So I love that. Um, and then finally, what's your favorite scary movie? The Shining.

The Shining. Oh, and mine's The Witch. Not even a question for me. I know when I changed mine to Doctor Sleep, I was like, The Shining is still a better movie, but this is, you know, resonating with me now. No, I think The Witch is a superior film to The Shining, and I love it a lot. Wow. I know. Come at me if you want, but I am fine. Alright. Um, uh well, next week starts our Christmas season. Woo! I guess, you know, holiday season. We support whatever you celebrate, but we will be diving into some Christmas-themed movies, and we are going to start with Rare Exports a Christmas Tale. Yes, I believe it is finish.

I don't know. Oh, wow. We're we're going to. Yeah, we're gonna travel the world. We're gonna read some more subtitles. Live deliciously, and we're gonna see some spooky, festive, kriskringle type things. Love some subtitties. Mm-hmm. Alright, until next time, when we dive into uh, you know, Holly Jolly Horror Goodness, you can go over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review, and maybe we'll give you a scream on next week's episode. This review comes from Heath. He says, I had the honor of watching a live showing of this in New York, and I saw Nick Cage sitting in the background. I swear it was him. I don't even think Parker or the other two hosts saw him.

So crazy. Great podcast and funny AF. Wow, I guess I didn't see him, but I'm glad to know he's a fan. If you would like to come to a live recording, support us on Patreon, and one lucky winner will be invited next year. Wow. And speaking of, we are in fact on Patreon. I know. Pretty mind-blowing. Yes, a new development. But if you want more, what's your favorite scary movie? And guys, who wouldn't? Then you can head over to patreon.com slash scary movie pod. And if you sign up this month in December or next month in January, then you will get a physical postcard in the mail, customized and signed by us just for you. And uh, you can sign up now.

We will begin posting rad content in January, which includes mini sodes coming out every other week. Further reading the created by us on each episode. You can get a newsletter about all of our favorite scary stuff. And uh undying love. Undying love. We'd appreciate the support. Yes, we have more new cables to buy. We're wanting to head out into the world and do more horror-themed things next year. It all costs money, and we would like to be able to devote time, energy, and resources into making the best product for you. And we can't do that without your help. So head on over to patreon.com slash scary moviepod to show us your love. My name is Parker Heron.

You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, Letterboxd, and the slasher app at Parker Delray. My name is Carolyn. You can find me on Instagram at Carol Manifesto. My name is Ian Hoyt. You can find me on Instagram and YouTube at Ian Hoyt. And you can find all three of us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at Scarymovie Pod. You can find our calendar and reviews on scary moviepod.com. You can send us an email at scaryMoviepod at gmail.com. I you're getting the picture, I guess. And if you too would like to live deliciously, you can head to patreon.com slash scary moviepod. What's that like to live deliciously? Wow.