Orphan feat. Julieann Marie

We're seeing kids for the first time this weekend. I'm ready to adopt. Adopting an older child is not an easy decision. My name is Esther. Why don't you join the party? I've never really seen the point of it. I guess I'm different. There's nothing wrong with being different, you know. It's just an extraordinary difficult. I don't think party likes me too much. It's your killer host. My name is Parker, your resident horror fanatic. And I'm Julianne, your A-24 horror. And welcome to What's your favorite scary movie? What's your favorite scary movie is a horror film podcast where we're on a journey to find our favorite scary movie one at a time. Whether you hate them or love them, join us and discover yours.

Spoilers ahead, so plan your movie screening every weekend before the episode release. Happy New Year. Hi, 2021. Hi, Parker. Oh my god. That's how that's how horny I am for a new year, even though I don't think anyone's gonna be any better. But that's yeah. I was about to say, what rate am I being charged per minute right now? Ooh, Julianne, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. Hello everyone. Bert, it's a little chilly. I'm so cold. You know, the weather outside, frightful. And uh that is my segue into saying we watched Orphan this week. That's all I had. A movie that is cold. It's snow whore, snorfin, as they say in the movie, bringing it back.

See? Oh my god. Remember that part? Yeah, because that part did make me laugh. I know. You know, any just little stupid pun in a movie, and you know, everyone cringes, and I'm the one in the theater theater that's like, so did you see this in theaters? No. Um, I don't know why I said that with such disdain. No, no, I did not. No, I um actually I was texting you that I bought, so I had a video store in my hometown where you know they would have the new release rentals up on the wall and they'd have like 20 copies because they were hot. And after that time had kind of passed, maybe like a month, they would sell all the extra rental copies for like a dollar.

Right. And so it got to the point where just buying those copies were cheaper than renting it. So I mean, when I rented this, instead I just bought the DVD for a dollar, and it's like a really shitty DVD. It says rental like on the disc, and there are no special features or anything. You turn it on, it's a picture of Esther, and it just says play movie, and that's the only option. Yeah, I I do have the blue, the blue is pretty. And um, I've I had a DVD and rewatched it. God, this is your first time you've seen it since it came out, you said oh yeah, it's been a while. Oh, this I will watch it every year in the winter because she's a winter, she's a wintry movie, but she did come out in July.

Yes, which we just our last film actually that we reviewed on this podcast, Gremlins came out in July. Did it really? I didn't know that. Yeah, it did, and I mentioned it on that episode, but in uh uh special features documentary, Joe Dante said that if they put it out at Christmas, then Christmas would be over and everybody would stop watching it. But if they put it out in July, then people would be hot and they would want a little snowy fun. So in July makes sense. Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but this is not a Christmas movie, this is a January movie, I've decided. Yes, we've decided we said so. It is now canon. Orphan was directed by Yome Colette Sarah, who also has directed movies that you've probably seen because when I saw the credits for Orphan come up, I was like, never heard of that person in my life.

But he also directed House of Wax from 2005, The Shallows from 2018, and the upcoming movie from Disney Jungle Cruise. So what a what a collection of films that's out of nowhere. Uh, it was written by David Leslie Johnson McGoldreck. Oh, and I thought that this was very interesting. Dig into this, Julianne. He was a co-writer on The Conjuring 2 from 2016 and Aquaman 2018, both James Wan films. So now going from there, he is the sole screenwriter on the upcoming conjuring movie, The Devil Made Me Do It. And his upcoming films, besides that, include a reboot of a nightmare on Elm Street. That's what IMDB said. Which do we know about that? No, I I mean I feel like every other day there's like a nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th, and so like I I mean it's for now.

It's exist, right? And we've been told that we can't always trust IMDB, but it was listed as he's the writer on a reboot of a nightmare on Elm Street. So keep your eyes out from that. It says it's in pre-production, and back to James Wan, Aquaman 2. So it seems like he's really gotten on that um, you know, climbed that ladder. And what was that, Twisted Pictures? Is that James Wan's James? I think so. Now, Orphan is a production uh by Dark Castle Entertainment, which this is has not come up on our podcast before. So quick rundown. It's an entertainer it's a production company whose name is inspired by William Castle, the famous director from uh would you say the 50s?

Yeah, something like that. Word film director, yeah. And Dark Castle Entertainment is responsible for films like 1999's House on Haunted Hill, which famously I tried to watch when I was a child and was too scared, turned it off. Well, it's so cute. And I've never tried since then, so I I've heard it's not good. It does have a cult following because everything has a fucking cult following on film Twitter. So okay, let's not do let's no hot takes this early. Um, and also House of Wax Connections. Oh, and of course, hello. This movie was produced by Leonardo DiCaprio. Ooh, child, he's got good taste. He is good taste. Orphan stars, Vera Firmiga is Kate. Oh we know her, we love her.

She's part of the conjuring franchise. She's the mom in the Bates Motel TV show, which I've never seen before. She's a horror icon. Bates Motel's good, Julianne. I'm sure I believe you. I believe you. And um, you you definitely want to plug your conjuring episode and your Patreon episode. If you want to hear more about Vera Farmiga, you can tune into our episode on The Conjuring, or you could head on over to patreon.com slash scary movie pod for our episode on The Conjuring 2. Shameful plug. Um no, honestly, everyone always I think cites her performances in the conjuring franchise as like her greatest, but like I think it's this baby. She fucking rolls this movie. I uh more on that later, but well, yes, and I have a specific I do I want to specifically take a chunk to talk about the cold open of this movie.

But right now I would like to say she gives out a gorgeous guttural scream in that nightmare sequence, and it is incredible. She's so good. Yeah, she doesn't scream in a lot of these other movies. Yeah, you're right, because she's kind of more like the the voice of reason and yeah. Um also stars Peter Sarskard as John, who was in the cell from 2000, the skeleton key from 2005, The Lie, which I don't know what the hell that is from 2018. What is that? Horror movie. I just is these are like the three horror movies that he was in. Okay. Will appear in the upcoming film The Batman. That's exciting. Yeah, that seems like a big, big thing for him.

Big thing for him. Oh, and it stars Jimmy Bennett as as Parker has in quotes, shit child Daniel, who had been the Amoville horror from 2005 and Poseidon from 06. He was also the person who accused, I believe, um, was it Aja or is it right? A name pronounced Aja or Asia Argento, Daria Argento's daughter. He was the one who accused her of sexual molestation from like a movie set or something. Yeah, because she was one of the people who was like part of like the Me Too movement. And then people were like, yo, you did something, some bullshit, and it was him that kind of called her out. Um let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see.

Yeah, uh I don't know if her name is pronounced as Aja or Asia Argento, but Dario's daughter, yeah. She he accused her of doing some shady shit to him. So what a twisted web of horror personalities. Uh-huh. Yep. And then um Ariana Engineer is Max, the daughter who's death. She was in Resident Evil Retribution from 2012, and I guess that's kind of it. Um, and also CCH Pounder as Sister Abigail, Rosemary Dunsmore as Grandma Barbara, who's a bitch, and Margot Martale as Dr. Browning, and the star, Miss Isabel Furman as the queen, Miss Esther, who fucking fucks this movie. Jesus, Julia. All right. How do you really feel? No, no, I mean a good way. She like no, it sounded sounded very good.

Um, she was in the Hunger Games from 2012, the TV series Masters of Sex, and the upcoming films Escape Room 2 and Orphan Kills, Orphan's first kill. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Orphan kills, you're on Halloween. Halloween kills, orphan kills. How good of a title would Orphan Kills be? Guys, I just pitched you. You're new. So well, I thought I think it's really interesting that you revealed to me, because I'm not so much in the orphan no, but you're a bit of an orphan expert. I'm a bit of an orphan fan, yeah. Yeah, you told me that this is a prequel that is coming out. Um yeah, so everyone was a little bit like, huh, that's interesting because she's like 22 now, 23.

She was 12, I think, when this movie came out. Um, so yeah, they're supposed to be doing some kind of weird technology, like you know how then the Irishman they did that engaging shit. They're gonna do that and kind of do like a mixture of like, you know, kind of weird edits, um, and just make her seem younger. But yeah, it's gonna be like her journey before she meets what what the hell is their last name in this movie? The family. Oh family. You know, I don't know. Um well, the family. It's like her journey and up until she meets them. Well, yeah, there's a lot. Fire, sure. The fire, yeah. I just thought that was kind of surprising because I feel like as with many horror movies, like the ending, like I don't see a body in a bag, so like I I think that the door to a sequel would be really easy.

So it's surprising to me that they specifically are doing a prequel because I mean there is a lot to it, her backstory, but like we've heard it, you know, right. I agree, and I think, and this is something we'll get into later, but like I there is an alternate ending that I kind of would have preferred for this movie, it would have been a little bit better. I think so. It could have gone on to like a sequel and made and just went like a other detour of a different family. Um, but uh, but yeah, anyway. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would have loved that. Just like another terror, terror. Um let her go, let her rip shit up.

Yep, yeah, she's just a child again, and then there's the exact same twist. Yeah, they would have to get creative on how to make that interesting. Yeah, I mean this time she's 33 and she is uh like half velociraptor. The IMDB summary for Orphan says a husband and wife who recently lost their baby adopt a nine-year-old girl who is not nearly as innocent as she appears. The Rotten Tomatoes critic score for Orphan is a 56%. The audience score 63, also somewhat too low. The critics consensus for Orphan says while it has moments of dark humor and the requisite scares, Orphan fails to build on its interesting premise and degenerates into a formulae, sleazy horror thriller. The fuck it does.

That is a bullshit, that is such a bullshit take. No, trash take. Uh-uh. But also sleazy, great way. No, great way to describe this movie. I don't think it's sleazy, though. I think I think it has more style to it than that. Well, I do, but like sleazy in a fun way. I I don't know. Trash some of this is trash, but some of it's kind of kind of fun. I would take this as a compliment. Of course you would. Of course you take sleazy as a compliment. Um but Julianne, what is your critics' consensus um of Orphan? Which I will mention, disclaimer for transparency. Julie Ann is an expert on Orphan, and I'm sure it will come up momentarily, but she has a fabulous article that I read moments ago um on Orphan on Bloody Disgusting.

And if you want to read it, I'll I'm gonna put the link in the show notes to this episode so you can just go check that. Thanks, baby. Um I I think I think it's a genuinely I I I think it's one of the better, one of the best movies of the late 2000s. Because there there were there were some, but I think it was it was oversaturated with a lot of bullshit remakes and a lot of just bullshit in general. But this is a truly like original take on the bad seed kind of trope. Um I think this movie grapples with a lot. I mean, there's it's really it feels authentic. Um, I think it's incredibly well written.

It doesn't feel overstuffed to me, even though it's it's grappling with like the trauma of pregnancy loss, which is something that people don't talk about a lot in miscarriages. I mean, it's unsupportive, unfit therapist for people. She has a therapist and she's a bitch to her. I mean, that's a that is a real thing that people deal with. Um, alcoholism, she they have a deaf child that is used that is actually utilized as a plot device, which is it's not just like thrown in there for a good measure. She's actually it's it's used with purpose. Um the doofy dad trope feels kind of tropey, but also legit. Um I I just I I just I love the way that things are handled in this.

And again, it doesn't feel like it's too much. It kind of just feels everything fits in like a big puzzle and it all kind of makes sense by the end. There's always a reason for everything. I love I think it's I think it's great writing. I really do. I don't think I don't I don't think it's sleazy. So whatever rotten tomatoes. Oh well, my critics it's actually scary. There's good performances here. Like that, like she is truly she's she's scary, and you know she's scary. Like if she she came into your house, you'd be you be running. I haven't said anything to Julianne. Stop accusing me. I can see your face. So well, let me just go ahead and break the ice then.

My critics can sense is sleazy, but in a great way. I'm kidding. No, I I loved it. I had a great time watching this. Um, I thought it was really fun, and like you said, it feels like there's substance to the fun, too, which is always an A plus in my book. I'm watching a movie to enjoy myself, which you know, you don't always have to be enjoyable, but in this case it was. Um, I do I understand when Rotten Tomatoes say that it degenerates into a formula because there are certain things about it that um I've seen before, I've seen again. And it's it's bad seed territory. I mean, we've seen this stuff a million times with the bad bad kid, it just goes in different directions.

I think it's that's interesting. But even like there are a few like stamps on it, like her at the very end kicking Esther off of her and saying, I'm not your fucking mommy. Like that feels like a very generic horror movie stamp at the end of a movie. Um, so little things like that, but I do agree with you, and I I think the big standout here that makes the movie work is uh Vera Farmiga and um Isabel Furman. I think that they nail it, they are so good. I literally Googled Isabel Furman because I was like, there's no way that a child could do this. This must actually be a woman who looks like a child because there's no way.

And she is so good. And something that you mentioned in your article that everyone should be reading right now is um like how like to be a fly on the wall filming of the filming of some of these scenes, because I need to know like how you would handle some of this stuff with children, even some of the stuff the children say to each other, where it's just a scene with children. It's like, are they allowed to like have children do that? I remember when um kick ass came out and Chloe Grace Moretz uh has like a potty mouth, and there's this big uproar of like this is a child that you're having say all this stuff.

Like, this is the same thing where I'm like, holy shit, like yeah, she is a really um they it's dark. I mean, they have her do some dark ass shit. I mean, this is not, yeah. I mean, she she really goes to a place. I'm wondering if she got therapy after. Or I don't know, really. I mean, I don't know if they, I mean, she's she probably didn't need it, but I'm saying, like, you know, I don't know, you don't know, like, well, yeah, I mean, that was her pretending to uh smack a nun with a hammer. Oof. So yeah, and speaking of controversies, this movie, as you can imagine, a little bit of um drama, which you can read about in Julianne's incredible article, um, where um uh you know uh government officials and people in charge of adoption agencies were not happy about the depiction of adopting orphans, especially from other countries.

And they had to do a little fighting, a little finagling with the verbiage in their trailers. And even on my DVD, there was a hilarious little trait commercial that said, Orphan is not based on real children, please support local orphanages. I love it. And I was just like, what? I know the this the magical disclaimer of yeah, but here's the thing don't all the best movies, all the best movies get ripped apart by conservatives and by people who suck. I mean, look at Silent Light, Deadly Night, which I introduced you to for the first time this winter, this Christmas. You did, you did that got ruined by uptight people, they don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, and even so we have a little fun fact here in a second, but even um like Scream when Scream came out, and it was like, this is going to inspire children to do bad things. Yeah, and you uh texted me a little case from last year that um specifically had the quote in it, this was just like orphan, where it's bizarre. A mother and father from Indiana adopted a young gal from the Ukraine, and they ended up abandoning her and leaving her and fleeing to Canada, which they have now been um pressed charges against for this, because they claimed that she was actually um, I believe they said a 22 year old woman who had tried to push the mom into an electric fence, pour a bleach into her coffee, and threatened to stab them in their sleep, which is pretty insane.

Um and they like had her treated in therapy and stuff. And from what I can tell from this article from last year, from The Daily Mail. Um, it appears that she was determined to actually be eight years old when this happened and that the charges against them are legit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I remember when it first came about, everyone was like, yo, that's the plot of a divorping. What the hell? You know, like, and then it kind of and it was like, oh, wait a minute, she actually was a kid. Oh, wait a minute, she wasn't. Oh, it was like a lot of back and forth. But so so the last thing we've heard is that the allegations were true, but that she's a child.

Yes. Okay. Okay. The other thing that you sent me, um, which Julianne, just my little info source, just feeding me all the deets, um, which I then went on a bit of a deep dive on, is apparently Orphan was in some way inspired by a real woman named uh Barbara Skorlova. So I actually, it's hilarious. I Googled her name and she's come up in a bunch of different articles that are saying different things. So I don't know what the truth is. So it appears like one article, I think it was from CBS, said that she was posing as a young boy and going to school. And because she also has a degenerative uh hormone disorder that makes her look like a child.

And um, this thing that you sent me said that she took advantage of two mentally ill women and had them torture their children. So I'm seeing a lot of crazy stuff. So uh maybe we'll have to start a true crime podcast on this person and get to the the the juice because it was too much for me to wade through all of it because I was reading a three-part series just on the basis of Orphan, yeah. Exactly. So it seems like there's a bit of legend and lore informing Orphan, even if the adoption commercial claims that Orphan is not based on real children. You lie. What's the truth? I just I I love and and of course, I mean, this is like this is an every bad seed kind of bad evil child movie, but like the way that she expertly exploits every single crack in the relationship between John and Kate.

Like, I I love it. She every everything she can get her hands on. She's like, Oh, the diary tells me this, this, and this. Got it. I'm gonna fuck up this, do this, and do that. Like, I just I I love it. I think, and and that's why it's almost when you're watching it, like, this kid is way too smart to be nine years old. And then of course, she because she has nine years old, but she's way too smart to be nine years old. Right, right. And um I I one scene, I mean we'll probably jump around, but one scene that always disturbs me, and it's not it's not a scary scene or anything, I but it just gets under my skin.

It's when it's it's well after um Kate, as Vier Famiga, she's teaching because she's a piano teacher, she's teaching Esther how to play piano, and then like a little bit later on, she sees her playing Tchaikovsky, like the expert, like perfectly like and she you're like, Who is this person? And that's when you start to kind of get like the chilly. She looks at her, like, yeah, like she's like, You didn't like you offered to teach me, and I accepted. Like, you know, I feel bad for I I pity you because you have a deaf child, basically. Like, bitch, like she, like she's a little shit, and I think I just she gives me the chills, and like, yeah, I think something that's really fascinating about this movie is like that situation where she says, You asked me if I wanted if you could teach me, and I accepted is the way that we like treat and what we do around children, because we're not thinking about what they're one picking up on, like when the dad is kind of I actually think that he was telling that mom from school, like, no, I will not come to your house and move that chair.

He was being chill there, which was good. But like she was purposefully listening to that situation because it's just like the fact that that mom would be like approaching the dad like that, like us as adults, we know what's happening there. And obviously, Esther is an adult, but like they're just doing that in front of the children, you know, right? Right. And there's a lot of stuff in this movie like that where it's like, no, you don't do that in front of children. It's and then understanding how much they think they're like sponges, right? I mean, that's if well she because she she knew that he had cheated on her before, and she is again, she exploited that by being like, Oh, he's you know, he's trying to he's trying to hit that.

And she's like, wait, what? You know, like she everything she could. The scene, I think, and I guess I mean we could I guess start getting into it now, but like they're they're they're pretty hot for each other, like they're like they're a pretty sexual couple. At the beginning, it's it seems like she's kind of still traumatized by the pregnancy law. She doesn't really want to be touched or anything, and then they start kind of slowly started kind of poking up again and start having sex again. And um, they they have sex in the kitchen that one scene, and it's kind of hot, right? You're like, okay, cool, you know, but not when you have kids.

Damn, yeah. No, I that was the scariest scene of the whole movie. And you know, he they're going at it and he's behind her, and then you know, she they bang their head, you're like, ha ha, that's realistic. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you just see her, she's in the fucking corner, and I'm like, oh, I just I had the chills. I'm like this little bitch, and then she's like, Yeah, I know they fuck. Yeah, when she approaches it around it. It's so disturbing. Like, she's like, Yeah, I know they fuck, like fuck you. I I know that you guys fuck. Like it's so I'm like, Oh, the balls on this little girl. Like, you know, like before you know, you're like, God, she's ballsy, and like, yeah, you know, it's bizarre the the parents' relationship because sometimes it does feel really intimate, and but sometimes it's just hot and cold, you know.

Sometimes I'm just like they don't like each other at all. Well, I I don't think it's so much that I think it's just they're they're portrayed as like a normal couple that have had issues, and like he he doesn't trust her entirely because of her alcoholism, and because she like like there's so there's so much background and context to this movie, like and it all it all fits in event, it all kind of comes together, but like you know, she's to be an al she's a recovering alcoholic, and um she it it's alluded to that basically she was out or she was drinking or drunk or passed out or something, and the youngest daughter was outside by the pond and fell in because she wasn't paying attention to her and she could have drowned.

Um, so yeah, the dad was there, and I have this whole thing written down as like something that I want to discuss because I have a lot of emotions. So you mentioned that she has this therapist, and at first, the therapist is being chill. She says that you know, uh Kate confesses that she thought about going to buy some wine, and she says that it was more important to her for her to have had the urge and then resisted it than to pretend that she doesn't have the urge at all. And I was like, that's actually pretty good advice. Like that sounds great. Um, and then we don't see a lot from her, and then there's just this scene, like three-quarters of the way into the movie, where the husband and the therapist are just completely weaponizing her her addiction and her issues against her.

And I hated that. I thought that seemed so unprofessional. Yeah, and she uh Kate even says to John, she says, Why does everyone here get the benefit of the doubt from you except for me? It cuts so deep because and it's it had I listen, not to get too personal, but like I've watched it in my own parents' marriage. Like I've like, I watched my mother, who is a saint, be like to my dad, this is going on, this is happening, and he's like, Yeah, yeah, whatever. But then to the outside world, he's Mr. Friendly, he's Mr. Nice guy listening to the oh yeah, so-and-so said this, and so you know, but yet to my own mother, he's like, you know, gaslighting basically, right?

That is so common, and that's why, like, what's so great is these characters are so complicated and you care about them so much, like you want to see them be okay, but at the same time, like my my resentment towards John just like grew and grew, and he's a typical goofy fucking dad character that just like no, she's fine. I'm like, I just want to punch him in the face, and you know, he pays for it, which I think is great. Yeah, and I mean the movie gets here eventually, but right there is I wrote in my notes about halfway through the movie, I was like, listen, I love that something you could think about this movie is why don't they just get rid of her?

But like at the same time, because I thought that too. I was like, dude, just like at what point is it not worth it anymore? But like that would be so traumatic to a child, that would be so hard for a parent. You would have so much guilt, it would be embarrassing. Like even when I was adopting my precious child, my cat hot dog, I was terrified to go there because I was like, what if I get the wrong cat and we're not getting along? And then in a month I want to give him back. Like I know that I would not be able to give him back. Yeah. Oh yeah, it's I mean, it's adopting a child like you, it's through thick, it's it's like getting married, it's like through thick and thin, allegedly, you know.

But this is a child and you're taking care of a child. Um, children suck anyway. So I mean, that's right. Yeah, but sorry, adoption agencies, disclaimer. And I just I like even up to the point where like I I love they I love that they even include, like you wanted to bring up the opening, but like I love that they include like the building up of her being like, I think I'm ready. I think I'm finally like, because it's a huge decision and adopting an older child, and she's going back and forth, and she's like, Okay, I think I'm ready to go. And then when of course when they meet her, and you could tell like right off the bat, like she like automatically she always favors the father.

There's like this weird Freudian. And I even thought, like, in what world? I mean, I know that he happens upon her, but if I were to walk into a room where the two of them were together, like I'd be like, that's kind of weird. Yeah, yeah. And there's that's the one of the big things I I love about this movie, makes it so icky, is that there's like a Freudian psychology to this movie where it's like the girl wants to fuck the dad, and like yeah, the the child wants to fuck the and it's just it's it makes me like oh like how can they? It's like almost like they got away with so much in this movie, like because she's not actually a child, but it's just it's so compulsive, you know?

Like Yeah, that haunting part where she's like, We're scared of the lightning. I want to sleep next to daddy, and in the me in the meantime, before that, like he has he has a heart on because she's going down on him, and like he and I'd be like, You need to go away. Like, you need to go back to the city. Yeah, give us five minutes, come back. Uh, but no, that was so because then she does just hop into bed and like he's like trying to adjust his britches. And I was just like, Oh, like because that was another thought. There's another scene at the end where the where Kate and uh Esther fight, and he's and he's like, We're gonna sleep up here.

I think you should sleep on the couch. And I was like, in what world is that dad going to sleep alone with the child they've had for like what a couple of months? I know, and not to mention, like, she's it's a weird age because she's pre-pubescent, like, so she's probably gonna be getting her first period soon and like developing breasts and things like that. And it's like it's a weird age that I feel like for dead. Like, I know like I know my dad had a weird, had a hard time with like me, you know, growing becoming a teenager and stuff, and like so it's kind of like you know, she's a child, but it's also like maybe give her some space and let the mom kind of deal with things because she's a woman too.

Like, it's it's it's weird, it's a very icky thing, but yeah, um, I I love even like that one scene where Esther locks the bathroom door, and she's like, We don't lock doors in this house. And I'm like, Well, she's a I'm like, well, you even even before you know the twist, I'm like, Well, she's a young girl, like she wants privacy. Like, that's like that to me would be like, I get that, you know what I mean? Yeah, and she doesn't know this fan. I thought that was crazy too. I was like, she doesn't know you. She doesn't know y'all, like give her space. Like, yeah. Now you mentioned the open the cold open, and I just want to quickly uh say that I so it's it it's a bizarre scene because it is so over the top and like almost campy, where like they're like wheeling her on the wheelchair and she's leaving like a trail, which is horrifying trail of like miscarriage blood underneath her.

And then a nurse like look, she's like, Where's my baby? And a nurse like looks her dead in the eyes and says something like, Your baby's dead, like with no sympathy. Like, this is such a bizarre scene, and also I think that it really capitalizes on like something that I love about horror, how it's able to use like gross outs and like yeah, insanity to actually look at a pretty serious issue. Like you were saying, I don't see a lot of movies handling um miscarriages or stillbirths or uh that type of issue. And so yeah, I think the beginning is really bizarre. I don't know if you have anything to add. Well, didn't you? I mean, she adds to that guttural scream and just like it's it's like primal.

I think and I think that's the weird thing, is like the the beginning is so primal, I think. And then it's because that's that's what's going on in her brain, right? That's the moment, and you can feel that, and then the move rest of the movie is not like that, which I really like. Like it's not like if my like if I would have seen that for the first time, it would have been like this movie's kind of you know, it's a little ridiculous, and then like then the movie itself is so real and authentic to me that it's it's not like that, it's just what's going on in her brain. It yeah, I I think it's I think it's great.

Yeah, yeah. Um, so here's something I'm really curious about. The obviously this whole movie is I mean, I'm not gonna say this because if you listen to my interview with Anish Chagenty, who directed and wrote Run, um, I asked him about the twist of that movie, and he said that the twist of that movie came in the process of creating the movie. Because when I see a movie, I'm like, oh, somebody thought of this twist and was like, let's make a movie. Somebody, one of these guys was like, Oh my god, an orphan who's actually 33. Movie, let's go. I don't know if that's the case, actually. So whatever. Yeah, but I think that this what I what I'm curious about is there are quite a few little subplots involving Esther like living life as a child.

You know, she's having issues at school, she's like, you know, worrying about how to dress. And you know how sometimes I don't know if this has come up on a movie we've done together, but sometimes I feel like a movie is actively instead of like tricking me, like it's lying to me. And I just wonder how you feel about like if a grown woman in the body of a child would have just known better how to handle herself at school, because the first like evil thing we see Esther do is pushing that girl out of the jungle gym. And in my brain, it's like, well, a 33-year-old woman just wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place because she wouldn't have been the the loser at school, right?

Yeah, and I think also like she blow, she would she'd blow her cover too much. Like I it's kind of like, yeah, it's hard because then but at the same time, like that's just that's that's inherent in her personality. Like she can't help herself almost. So she's a psychopath, right? Well, yeah. So yeah, I I can kind of see both. Like I kind of feel like there's some things that are purely just there for plot, moving the plot along and be like, here's the evil kid doing evil kid shit. But it's also like at the same time, like you said, it kind of feels like there is some of it that just feels she's I mean, she's gonna do fucked up shit because she's fucked up.

So I can I yeah, I I can see both. I I don't think it's manipulation per se, but it teeters. It tears, I think. Yeah, yeah. I think it's I just thought that some of the school stuff was strange. Like yeah, yeah. I don't know. She would have known how to cover tracks and blend in a little bit. I think if I were like uh in a child's body, I wouldn't be wearing like a 50s dress and carrying a Bible around. I would know better than that. And she's done it before. I mean, she's done this shit before, so you'd think she'd be kind of yeah, it's it is kind of weird. Um I mean, unless, like you said, she's like really trying to um provoke people.

Yeah. I I do want to bring up um I want to hear what you think about like the scene because they're the only the boy, Daniel, the son Daniel, like have like as now I'm an only child, so I can't speak to this, but as someone who you have you have a couple siblings, so tell me what would you do if you were in that situation, if you were intimidated by your older sibling and they were like threatening you, like don't don't tell mom and dad I'm gonna I'm gonna kill you if we do. Like, what would you do? You're scary, man. Well, I am yes, the youngest of three. Remember, she's she's gonna cough as a little prick before she he knows what to do with it.

I know. I love that. I love it. Um, I think she says hairless. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Um, I so I am the youngest of three, and yes, many threats have been made against my life in that household. Um, you know, I think what's tough is that I would never believe my sisters because I'd never seen my sisters kill anyone. Yeah. Having seen Esther kill people, I think what's really wonderful about the siblings storyline is that they're really trying to protect their family because they have seen what Esther can do. And you know, like the scene where Esther's holding that Russian roulette pistol up to Max's face, Max has the cutest little face in the world, and seeing a gun held in it is so scary.

Oh, she's so cute. So I think that like I think what is really great about the family in this movie is like they are trying, besides that dad who can get stabbed. Um they're like they're legitimately trying to look out for each other, and like Max isn't going to tell because uh Esther says she'll shoot her mom if she doesn't, if she does. And so I actually really love the siblings, and I also really buy something that I was like, oh yeah, totally, is that Daniel knows sign language. We see it at the end, like he really does know sign language, but at that dinner table, he pretends that he doesn't because he's like, My sister's such a freak.

Like, what's she saying, mom? Uh uh. And like that feels very much like a sibling thing to do. Now, him uh defaulting to some racism with Esther, not cool, but yeah, but he's also a how old is the 11-year-old little shit, and that's how 11-year-old little shithead boys are. So I guess authentic. Yeah, I did think that the sibling uh dynamic was really uh solid. Um, but also there's a scene, Pivotal, where Daniel and Max are making a plan to try and save the parents, and he's speaking sign language, which is a silent form of communication, but he's also saying it out loud, and Esther's listening at the door. Oh, I know. If you were trying to tell a secret, just do the sign language.

Yeah, that is true. That's my movie flub. Yeah. Of all the things that this movie did, that was the only thing in the movie where I was like, nope, wouldn't happen. Stupid. Yeah, that's dumb. Yeah. Um, and also, I think I mentioned this in the article too. One thing I and one of the only things, the only flaws this movie has, there's the bit of like the editing when they're when there's the the body double of when she's supposed to be like a grown-up. Like that, like girl, that does not look authentic at all. I'm like, that looks so big. I would like to ask. I so I I read your article and you said that in the article.

I I don't know what you're talking about. The the the scene most primarily is the ending when she she's revealed to be a woman and she takes off all everything and she's they the oh she's like unbinding her being unbinding herself and she's purposely covering her face in the in the scene. Did you notice that? The woman I gotta look it up. The woman who is playing her um, I mean her her as an adult, like with like breasts and stuff, like she's covering her face with her hand. And I think that looks unlike that. I'm like, no, you're cover- I'm like, you're that you could have you could have placed the camera somewhere where her face just doesn't, you don't see her face.

Like it's just it's so bad. I it's only finally really fall. Okay, pause for a moment. I'm going to watch it. Jay, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this. Oh, whatever. Nothing out of the ordinary to me there. And in fact, I remember specifically when I watched it the other night, I thought, wow, are they allowed to have a child undressing on my screen right now? Maybe, maybe because I've seen it like a thousand times, maybe I just notice it more, but it bothers me. Yeah, I I I cannot tell. But yeah, they don't show her face. It is like you see her little nipples poking through that uh binding. Okay, so the first time that we are given a hint that Esther is truly evil, I would argue is not when she kills Sister Abigail, which is when we see that she truly is evil and is willing to kill people.

But when she pushes Max into the street in front of Sister Abigail's car, I feel like the whole scene is escalating with this great suspense and tension. And you're like, what are she gonna do? What's she gonna do? Like she's got a hammer, that one's got a car, and then she pushes the child in the street. That is a moment in this movie where I like literally gasp. I was like, oh. And then, yeah, the death of Sister Abigail is truly gruesome. And I just love how much like we know that crazy stuff's happening, but just like a quick pivot that is in the movie where it's like, oh, this is like a big deal. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think she has a Of like that character has a lot of empathy. Like I no, no, I sister. It's like Jesus Christ. Um, no, I mean, she she was rooting for her. Like, I like I feel I I genuinely feel bad for this woman. I'm like, she was, she was, she wanted this little girl to be adopted out. But that being said, it also blows my mind that she goes all the way there and she's like, Oh, I think we made a mistake. I'm like, girl, how did you how like what made you just put all this together right now? That you, oh, you might have made a mista made a mistake.

Yes. If she, if she she she said that she was right there when the little boy cut he cut himself or something, or stabbed himself with scissors and the fire, the Sullivan house fire, yada yada. I'm like, you're just putting this together now? Like, like that kind of bothers me though, too. Yeah. Like she's so I'm like, she's so sweet. And she, I I it breaks my heart when she dies, but I'm like, girl, you're you're really we're just getting to know we're just realizing this now. Like, yeah. I mean, it seems like she does know how to investigate. And honestly, like, if Kate can get as far as she did, like Sister Abigail should have been able to a long time ago.

Um, yeah, I will say that like the CGI blood that makes an appearance in this movie, not great. Uh, you know, you know, I don't really notice. Is it bad? Is it kind of she's like hitting Sister Abigail? There's just a little like spurts coming out of it, and they just look a little silly. And even like at the end when Kate like kicks her, there's kind of like a like of blood, and it looks a little silly. Looks a little silly, yeah. Um I never disagree with you, Parker. Well, of all the CGI that happens in horror movies, I feel like the CGI blood is the one that bothers me the most. That's just like the easiest thing to just do yourself, and it always looks better.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know why they do that either, but yeah. Um, that's probably one of the best scenes. And I think uh I do love the scene where she blows up, not well, kind of blows up, but sets the tree house on fire and her the smile, the smile on her face, like, oh my god, I love I love it. Even no, you no, you actually you're wrong. You're wrong about the first no, no, no. I'm sorry. How wrong am I? No, the first time we see that she's actually a little shit is when she kills the pigeon. Remember? Well, yes, but like everything has reasoning, like she kills the pigeon, and yes, you're right that that is like a smoking gun that they left for us, or whatever they call it, somebody's gun, uh you know, movie stuff.

Um, you know, they show us that because it makes an appearance. Um, but I the the way that she describes it makes total sense to me. As somebody who grew up with like farms, uh, her being like, hey, that thing's in pain, put it down. Yeah, yeah. I was like, yeah. Yeah. So and even when she pushes the the little girl out of the treehouse, like, yes, that's evil, but to me, the push is something a little girl would do. The breaking the ankle and all that stuff, like yeah, that that was just circumstance. That was just luck. Yeah. Um, so it's this moment where she really like is the one hammering Sister Abigail's head. Like, that is so sinister.

And you're right, like from there, it really is just like a snow uh winter, a snowball effect. Like she is just like off the rails. Like from there, the movie speeds up so fast. We get like mental institute, we get the tree house. There's the whole uh host, uh the hospital stuff was crazy. I wrote my notes. I said, Um G, did she really just kill him? Like, uh like it's crazy. And I think we can't ignore just like the general, like again, going back to like the Fordian psychology, like she hates this mother, she hates Amiga. And I think it's this the slow burn of like the manipulative shit that she does to her. Like, I like the one thing is the flower picking, which like that.

Oh my god, it's like she's and the dad's active ignorance about that. That is that is he's like, she didn't know. It's like, no, you are actively just like Vera Farming says, like, he is giving everyone the benefit of the doubt except for her. It's infuriating, but like she it's like she she know, like she opens up to her and says, like, who like she gets like who's Jessica? And she tells her and she tells the whole story, she knows her the garden, she knows how much those flowers mean to her, and the little bitch picks them all out, and that like the the paint on her face on Vera, oh it's such a good scene, and like but again, you know that Vera Vermiga is not that stupid, or it's just like Kate, is not that stupid to like pull her arm that hard where it's like she could do something to hurt her.

I'm like, no, she wouldn't do that at all, she's not a dummy, but like then the arm breaking thing Esther exploits it into the arm breaking, and oh my god, the I mean how come on, come on, guys. Like, I that's the thing, that's another thing where it's like this is true insanity because like our bodies have natural reactions to stop ourselves from doing stuff like that to ourselves. She clearly doesn't have it, like she is willing to do whatever, whenever she's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't. That's that's why I have to turn my head with that one. I can't watch it. I can't watch it. Yeah, any like kind of bone popping things. I just don't, yeah.

No, she's like I can't. Um trying to think of what else. Yeah, I'm ready to hit the finale. What do you think? Yeah, yeah. I think there's nothing I think we covered a lot of it. Yeah, go ahead, go on. The finale, she gets all dolled up while well, I mean, because Vera is okay. Here's a question I have. Can they just sedate people willy-nilly at a hospital? Like, I know she just slapped a child in the face and it was incredible, but like, can they just do that? And it was incredible. It was, it was so good. Uh, that's another moment where this movie, it's like, you don't think something like that can happen, and they just do like you don't think she's actually going to slap her, and she just does it.

Like, wouldn't you though? If if if she was trying to kill my slap, okay, we'll get it. No, I you would think that they would like arrest her at least, at the very least, before it's a date her, it's a date her that was bizarre. But I mean, obviously, she has to be out of the house, so we can have this great seduction scene. Um, which, as you mentioned in your incredible article that everyone should be reading. Um, it is so bizarre because it's before I would think if I were writing this movie, I would reveal that she was 33 before this seduction scene. But no, they're just like, no, she's still a child. Yeah. And like she's getting some moves in on that dad.

And that dad is like, yo, that's how I would dress. I would I would put on a little black dress and a joker, and a joker, and like the dark makeup and red lips. That's how I would seduce someone, and I'm like, whoa, she, this little girl, she knows too much. She knows style. She knows that gothic aesthetic too much. I just like it's like he the thing is, it's not that she's just doing it, it's that he's like, he like is being like, whoa, stop. But also he's like opening up and like letting himself be much more vulnerable than you should be with a child. Like he he just starts like crying and telling her things, which is like what I would think like he would do if a grown woman was doing like to me, it's like he is pushing off her advances, but he's also not like he's letting her in in a different way than you would let in a child emotionally.

Well, like a typical, like a typical asshole man who needs his ego shirked. It's like he she's telling him, like, I just I don't think I'm the only one who appreciates you. I'm alone in appreciating you, John. And you're and I'm like, and that's that's the way to for a man that seems like he's that insecure, which he seems he pretty insecure, that's how you do it. She knows, she knows because she's a 33-year-old woman who's been around the block. Hell yeah. She knows how to play it. So I mean, it all I was like, that that makes sense to me. Yeah. And he's like drunk and high out of his mind. I was about to say, he just downs that bottle of wine, which Vera, come on.

If you're going to skip out on your chip or whatever, you're gonna do it in your own kitchen. It's just like, why would you go buy wine? First of all, I love that scene because she's buying the wine and she's like, We're we're having guests over. And it's just like he doesn't care, just buy the wine. Oh, I know. She's she's so gifted, yeah. Well, yeah, but I just thought that was funny. But then I'm just like, she's gonna sit in her own kitchen and do that where her husband, it's the same thing as them having sex in the kitchen. It's like somebody's gonna catch you, which they don't. She has to have a moment of strength, but I still was just like ridiculous, stupid.

And I I know how to how to do things without getting caught, apparently. But you also don't have a husband and three kids in the house, it's harder. If only I had a husband and three cats. Um, so here's something that I love in a movie. Um, it happens in one of my fave movies, the 2013 remake of Evil Dead, where there is a big climax, there's a resolution, oh, we're safe. No, ma'am. Climax number two. I do you like that in movies? Yeah. I know people that it annoys. No, it's um, I did not like it with our last movie that we reviewed, which is freaky. I thought that was a little too much. But no, this one because I like as well, as we're probably gonna start getting into like the end.

This is a really bleak movie. Like this, this really that's I think it should have could have I think it should have ended more bleak than it than it does. Personally, I think I think that she should have gotten away with it. I think it would have been a much better ending. Um, I like the ending. Like I said, we don't see a body in a bag, right? Right. But like but when she kicks her, it does look pretty dead. She's drowning. But no, yeah, when you're like, oh shit, like it's it's done, and you're like, oh no, she's she's still around, she's still kicking. This is she's she scares me in this in this scene.

I think she when you when you when she's gets pissed off and she starts on revealing herself to be who she is, and she has this look on her face and she's all scarred, like she's scary. And like the way that they make her, she's like lurking around the house, she and she looks like a woman, like she's wearing like this like like oh her face looks kind of like it's a little uncanny, like she looks really scary. She looks haggard, but yeah, she's really she's really scary. And um I think like from that point, it feels like a slasher at that point. Well, I love the the greenhouse chase. I thought was really fun, and like I would have been satisfied.

And then I can't remember specifically what happens, but when Esther like jumps out in the snow forest, so what is this? Uh that's a really good jump. Like, I I like yelled out in my apartment. Yeah, they're fighting, and Max tries to shoot Esther, and just that little precious girl pointing that gun at that, and I was just like, Don't even try, you're about to kill your mom. And then she shoots the ice, which like she could have killed her mom. Like being trapped under ice, that's scary. Sure, yeah. Um, that child with the gun, LOI barefoot that freaked me out too. I was like, Oh, I thought the same thing because Vera Farmiga is dripping wet when they're going to the police.

She's like barefoot. I was like, You're about to lose those toes. And it all goes back to how she almost drowned when she was younger because Vera Farmiga was was sick and didn't wasn't watching her, and she could have so this time it's like she's actively going in the pond. I'm like, oh, it's all it all comes for a full circle movie. I like it. Full circle. But yeah, uh like I say, I I I I do like the final, it's like okay, the actual ending, which is you know, the cops pull up and the sirens are coming, and she gets kicked in the face and she's done, she's dead. Not your fucking mommy. Oh yeah, not even stupid.

Yeah, I had to it's a good line. I cheered, but like it's stupid. Yeah, it's a it's a good theater movie where you're like, yeah, you're cheering it on, but I think the alternate ending, alternate ending, I think, is a little bit more akin to the rest of the movie. Alternate ending, Julianne. Describe alternate ending. What happens? Basically, you're you're just you're watching her satisfyingly, satisfyingly. She's all bloody, and she looks gross, like she looks very haggard. This is after the greenhouse. After the greenhouse, this, yeah. She's putting on powder over her face and she's singing, and that's the story. Oh, that's the glory of. And you're like, okay, what did she just do? There's no one else, there's no one else around in the house.

The cops come, she comes, walks down the stairs with her little dress on, says, Hi, I'm Esther, all calm and cool as a cucumber. Dripping blood. Dripping blood, and the cops take her away, and that's it. And I'm like, that would have, even though I think it could have been a little bit more exciting, that is to me, is more and more tonally accurate to the rest of the movie because it's it's bleak. I want to see Esther get away with it. I not that I want to see people die, but I want to see, I want to see her go on and do it again. Like, I just I think that would have made more sense for the rest of the movie.

Yeah, it's interesting. And I do think that then, like, I mean, you're left to imagine, like, what are they going to put them in two different comp cars and they're going to be kind of like looking at it, you know, there's like you can imagine stuff that could happen afterwards. I do agree with you that it is interesting and not just as like, oh, is equal, but like it's that you can't you can't defeat an evil like that. And like it's great to see Vera Farmiga like pull herself up and like, no, I am you know facing my past, my fears, my traumas, and I'm going to save my daughter, and I guess head back to the hospital to see my son, who was almost smothered.

Um I feel like it feels satisfying to see that, but I mean, a horror movie, like I we appreciate when they can play with that. We don't always need the hurrah uh at the end of a movie. I feel like if this movie, if this was a smaller production company, something like an A24, something like you know, like it would it would be a big thing. A24 small, they're big potatoes now, Julian. Yeah, true. But I'm saying, but they're ballsy though. I just think it would have, I think if it would if this were a smaller movie, it would have made it would have made more sense to kind of make it more bleak. Yeah, and you're right that it seems pretty clear seeing that alternate ending that that maybe was intentional, and then somebody came in and was like, hey, you need to amp this up a little bit.

Yeah, we need to be able to market this ending. Exactly. Yeah. Uh Julianne, what would you say? Delicious. So many options. What would you say is your most memorable murder from Orphan? Oh god, sister Abigail getting hammered, literally getting what's what's what's her what's the woman's name? CeC, is it pounder? CCH Pounder. Which like she's she literally she gets she gets pounded there. Yeah. Girl. Oh, I I I it oh it kills me. I think that is one of the worst ways to die is get is to be blunt force trauma. That just oh I was like, you specifically don't want to get hit with a hammer. That's too specific. Um, I think being burned alive would suck.

Um, that that's too. Like, there's clearly only one option. You're totally right. I mean, that's so good. It's so good. It's also like the most drawn-out death scene of the movie. Like, that's the one that really gives us like our like horror movie Final Destination, like crazy. And she doesn't she doesn't die right away. That's what's so that it's so sad. She's she sits, she's suffering like a like a like a deer getting hit by a car, and you're just watching her, and I just oh well on a scary scale of one to five. How would you rate Orphan? Um, I'm gonna say between a three and a half and a four, man. I think this movie is I I think it's disturbing as fuck.

Yeah, I think there are certain the way the way that the lighting hits her face sometimes with the acting, just the the overall tonal bleakness of this movie, I think it makes it really scary. I'm gonna say three and a half, four or four. Yeah. I'm going to give it a three to a three and a half, just a little bit lower than you, a little closer to Avrage, because I I I totally agree with you. And I think that the richness of the um uh all the stuff we've talked about, the you know, we've dove into the complexities of this movie, and I think that that richness lends itself to being scarier in a way that, like, like I said at the very beginning, like if you don't want to deal with that, if you're like horror's not political, uh, whatever, like this movie's just fun too.

Like, it's fun to watch. So I I love that, and I think that there is a psychological um disturbance happening here, yeah. Um, that I think is scarier than most things. Yeah, I think would you give orphan um probably nobody knows what you're gonna say? A smash or a slash. Or I'll be smashing in the kitchen with this thing. Oh yeah. Julianne and the orphan in the kitchen. How about you get you, Mr. Banks? Thanks for asking. Um smash. I'm gonna do it in the bed though, while the children are watching. Uh, because they're scared of the lightning, and then they say, I want to sleep next to daddy. And I say, Oh, uh, you know, not for me, actually.

Why don't you go back to your bed? That's how my movie goes. Where I'm like, children, how'd you get in my house? I don't have any children. Uh, and that's the horror movie. So, Julianne, season three. We've had some winners. We've had everyone's a winner in my book, Julianne. What is your favorite scary movie? Well, it's sure as hell, and better watch out. Um, Better Watch Out. Good choice, Julian. I know. You know what? Um, I'm gonna change mine from terrifier to orphan. Yay! I am shocked, Julianne. I would have never guessed that. You know, I'm going to stick to gremlins, they are the light of my life. If they walked into my apartment right now, I would wait until midnight and feed them.

Oh, yeah. Julianne, it has been a pleasure. It has been quite a romp. I have loved having you on for this episode. It was such a delight. I probably would have never watched this movie again if nobody had told me to. Just because I couldn't remember it and I knew that I'd seen it before. So until next time, you can head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review so that we can add more horror fanatics to our um roster of friends. Um, because we're all friends. If you're listening to this right now, you're my friend. Um, and you know what? That's how the cookie crumbles. Julianne, how could I find you online if I wanted to?

You can look at pictures, you can look pictures of me on Instagram at the Jewel Marie, or if you want to watch me sass people on Twitter, same handle at the Jewel Marie. Wow, and you don't want to miss out. And sometimes she says nice things to me. And if you want to find me, Parker Heron, you can find me on Instagram, Twitter, uh, and letterboxed at Parker Del Rey. I'm trying to get better at letterboxed. It seems like a fun thing to do. I don't know. Clearly, it isn't because I don't do it enough. You can go read where I wrote that Wonder Woman was not that good, but it was fun. I think that's what my review said.

And you can find what's your favorite scary movie on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at ScarymoviePod. If you need more of us, which I know you do, you can go to patreon.com slash scary moviepod for bonus episodes every single month. You can also find our website with our calendar, which is a little vague this month, um, at scarymoviepod.com, or you can send feedback or requests to scarymoviepod at gmail.com. Julianne, what's your new year's resolution? Uh honestly to go back to the movie theater at some point. I hope. Oh, yay. Maybe, you know, have fun, party, get laid, whatever, make money. You know, I love that. Do human things again. Yeah. Mine is uh, you know, to get fit and sexy.

So uh I hope everybody um a listener, what's your new year's resolution? Incredible. Good luck with that. I know you're going to achieve your dreams this year. Here, popping my champagne. Boop. Um, to a healthy and happy and scary, actually, not a scary 2021. I want a very not scary 2021. Uh, but those other things. Happy and healthy. Cheers, clink. Bye. Bye, but